F-22 AIRST

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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by sprstdlyscottsmn » 10 Jun 2019, 16:06

The F-1422 Raptor-Cat. Gotta love mockups that never have to worry about production, structure, or cost problems.
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by disconnectedradical » 10 Jun 2019, 16:16

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The F-1422 Raptor-Cat. Gotta love mockups that never have to worry about production, structure, or cost problems.


It's not just mockup, VG wings are part of Lockheed's NATF and also the A/F-X design. It would be even more expensive than F-22 but Lockheed took it seriously. Flight Global article on A/F-X before it got canceled is here.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 200212.PDF
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 200213.PDF

VG is still very much a viable option for high performance carrier aircraft. NATF and A/F-X wings are a lot more forward than F-14 though.

Interesting, even for A/F-X there is chin mounted sensor, and that design takes a lot from F-22.


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by disconnectedradical » 08 Oct 2021, 03:36

So this is a picture of the AIRST that was being tested in the 90s, looks like it goes under the nose. I think there is an empty compartment under the nose that was meant for this system, wonder if it will be added in a future upgrade. The space is there for use.
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by hornetfinn » 08 Oct 2021, 06:46

It would be a nice upgrade for F-22. I think only sensible solution would be using Advanced EOTS from F-35 with as much commonality as possible to get latest IR technology, save costs and getting upgrades in the future. Software and especially sensor fusion part might be problematic and take some time even if software from F-35 can be used.


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by disconnectedradical » 08 Oct 2021, 11:49

I think LM’s IRST21 may be easier to integrate into that space? They said that there isn’t enough “real estate” for EOTS under the F-22 nose, so even though EOTS itself is pretty small, wonder if it has to do with how it hooks up with the processor? EOTS is a tall sensor while IRST21 is not as tall but longer which seems to be how the bay under F-22’s nose is arranged.


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by charlielima223 » 09 Oct 2021, 21:54

As good as the F-22 is now, it makes me sad knowing how much BETTER the F-22 could have been.


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by wrightwing » 10 Oct 2021, 04:34

charlielima223 wrote:As good as the F-22 is now, it makes me sad knowing how much BETTER the F-22 could have been.

The MLU should get the F-22 to where it should've been, and then some.


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by hornetfinn » 11 Oct 2021, 07:06

disconnectedradical wrote:I think LM’s IRST21 may be easier to integrate into that space? They said that there isn’t enough “real estate” for EOTS under the F-22 nose, so even though EOTS itself is pretty small, wonder if it has to do with how it hooks up with the processor? EOTS is a tall sensor while IRST21 is not as tall but longer which seems to be how the bay under F-22’s nose is arranged.


Yeah, that could very well be a problem for installing EOTS into F-22. I think the powerful laser designator and high magnification optics take a lot of space. IRST21 would likely be a lot easier to fit inside F-22 nose. Maybe F-22 could have EOTS but without laser designator and with simplified optics? Of course that would require some serious development work, but I think IRST21 would need a lot of work too as the current system is designed for external pods. But IRST21 might still be easier to modify for F-22 than EOTS.


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by hornetfinn » 11 Oct 2021, 07:19

charlielima223 wrote:As good as the F-22 is now, it makes me sad knowing how much BETTER the F-22 could have been.


Yes, but it would've also been even more expensive meaning it might've been canceled even earlier than it was. Another thing is that it has been absolutely dominant even without systems like AIRST. It would've not made any difference as it has been a serious overkill against anything else flying as it was. In the future things might be different though with F-22 potentially facing VLO enemy aircraft.


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by jessmo112 » 13 Jan 2022, 23:03

FJAqU4pXsA40bF3.jpeg
New updates on the Irst.
It seems the AF wants it back. The issue is not just money but how to integrate it.
I'd like the boards thoughts on what kind of fix, is feasible.
Do we get the cheek arrays as originally planned.
Or an EOTS gimble in a nose housing.
Discuss.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... y-promised
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by BDF » 14 Jan 2022, 02:07

IMO, and I could be wrong, is that the reason a EOTS couldn't fit is because it has a more vertical footprint and is bulkier overall. Note I'm talking about turret and associated LRUs. A dedicated multi-color IRST is a different beast than a EOTS. Some exciting upgrades if they get funded.
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by hornetfinn » 14 Jan 2022, 07:52

I think if they basically took EOTS components and removed the whole laser system and laser spot tracker and simplified the optics, it might be possible to fit the system in F-22. It would still be pretty tough job to integrate into the airframe and also to the avionics system.


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by jessmo112 » 14 Jan 2022, 12:12

Are the components in a starring array really that different than a laser dazzler? I would think that you could make a mil grade painting laser that fits in the palm of your hand. I work out someplace near Creech, and I believe a guy in our outfit got in trouble for pointing a small over the counter laser at something flying.
Are mil grade lasers that hard?


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by hornetfinn » 14 Jan 2022, 12:29

jessmo112 wrote:Are the components in a starring array really that different than a laser dazzler? I would think that you could make a mil grade painting laser that fits in the palm of your hand. I work out someplace near Creech, and I believe a guy in our outfit got in trouble for pointing a small over the counter laser at something flying.
Are mil grade lasers that hard?


It's not a laser dazzler but a very long (several tens of kilometers) range laser target designator, spot marker and laser range finder in EOTS. It's completely different technology to the MWIR imaging sensor but in targeting systems they are combined to provide range information and target designation capability. They are quite bulky and require a lot of power compared to just IRST system without laser system. F-22 could do without that although laser range finder could be useful in some situations.


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by BDF » 14 Jan 2022, 15:20

hornetfinn wrote:It's not a laser dazzler but a very long (several tens of kilometers) range laser target designator, spot marker and laser range finder in EOTS. It's completely different technology to the MWIR imaging sensor but in targeting systems they are combined to provide range information and target designation capability. They are quite bulky and require a lot of power compared to just IRST system without laser system. F-22 could do without that although laser range finder could be useful in some situations.


My late father used to work for Litton Laser systems, which was absorbed by Northrop Grumman before he retired. He was a program director there for several systems, including LANTIRN. He brought one of the lasers home as he was taking it on a business trip to see another contractor. My memory is vague as I was in middle school or early high school so I can't recall the exact system it was for. It was either TADS or LANTIRN. Either way I was surprised, even then, how small the laser actually was. It was about the size of a kid's shoebox.

I'm still of the opinion that a dedicated IRST is the preferred solution for the Raptor. That being said, I do see the benefits of a EOTS or EOTS spin off from a cost perspective. Especially if we're serious about deploying NGAD and sun-setting the F-22 in the coming decade.
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