Why is F-22 much more agile than Su-35BM

[mixelflick]

Here you Go:
Pls look at the very start of the vid and observe the deflection of both Control surface and nozzles. They mimmic the same movment from the pilot Control input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTypIHLqG2I

And more to the point, listen to what the F-22 pilot says in the end of this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtC9szUc-w

Unless you look at some High quality vid of the F-22 and preferable in slow motion. Cause the TVC nozzles on the F-22 deflect quite fast and only in a very short time frame, Quite hard to see.

Could other pls join in here,..

Amazing, thank you so much. I often wonder though, just how much of the F-22's super-maneuverability is being "held back", for the air show crowd? I may be mistaken, but it looks from the vids like the Russians fly a much more aggressive airshow display vs. their American counterparts. I suspect much of this goes back to safety, but it does make the mind wander with respect to how much more the Raptor is capable of....

[haavarla]

Here you Go:
Pls look at the very start of the vid and observe the deflection of both Control surface and nozzles. They mimmic the same movment from the pilot Control input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTypIHLqG2I

And more to the point, listen to what the F-22 pilot says in the end of this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtC9szUc-w

Unless you look at some High quality vid of the F-22 and preferable in slow motion. Cause the TVC nozzles on the F-22 deflect quite fast and only in a very short time frame, Quite hard to see.

Could other pls join in here,..

Amazing, thank you so much. I often wonder though, just how much of the F-22's super-maneuverability is being "held back", for the air show crowd? I may be mistaken, but it looks from the vids like the Russians fly a much more aggressive airshow display vs. their American counterparts. I suspect much of this goes back to safety, but it does make the mind wander with respect to how much more the Raptor is capable of....

Out of safty reason, yes i agree. In Paris the Sukhoi seems to gain more altitude in his display. The French FAA is the Boss i guess. In MAKS it was a tad lower altitude.
But it could be explained With the Zukh AB Runway stretches over 5000m long. Makes it easier to recover and land.

Agressive? I suspect its many factors. Aggresive marketing, good for recruitment towards VVS, good for VVS and their shiny seat on the world arena, good for moral, very capable pilots.. what do i know..

But i do know this. Jon Beesley said the Russian do great Displays. Does it have to be so much more?

[Raptor_claw]

But i do know this. Jon Beesley said the Russian do great Displays. Does it have to be so much more?

Context is important. Jon did not intend that as a compliment. At the very least it is a backhanded one. He was subtly (but clearly) alluding to the difference between what the Russians jets do at airshows and what they can do operationally. A big part of that is the fact that the airshow jets have special control law loads which remove protections to allow them to do "cool" but very high risk maneuvers(including entries into departed flight).

[disconnectedradical]

There's a human limit on g, and flight controls are limited to 9g. Since both the Su-35S and F-22 are limited to 9g and are both capable of exceeding this, it really doesn't matter if F-22 is more maneuverable than Su-35S or vice versa. If both planes are doing 9g, what's the point?

[count_to_10]

There's a human limit on g, and flight controls are limited to 9g. Since both the Su-35S and F-22 are limited to 9g and are both capable of exceeding this, it really doesn't matter if F-22 is more maneuverable than Su-35S or vice versa. If both planes are doing 9g, what's the point?

It's not just a matter of max g's -- there is also the consideration of how much speed you lose while doing it, and at what altitudes and speeds.

[johnwill]

Pitch, roll, yaw rates and accelerations (in addition to g) all contribute to the perception of maneuverability.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Indeed, with these planes it more becomes of what they can do in excess of max lift AoA with yaw and roll control. At 60,000ft I bet having positive control if you exceed the stall alpha is comforting to know.

[popcorn]

But i do know this. Jon Beesley said the Russian do great Displays. Does it have to be so much more?

Context is important. Jon did not intend that as a compliment. At the very least it is a backhanded one. He was subtly (but clearly) alluding to the difference between what the Russians jets do at airshows and what they can do operationally. A big part of that is the fact that the airshow jets have special control law loads which remove protections to allow them to do "cool" but very high risk maneuvers(including entries into departed flight).

My understanding is that US demo routines never include routines that require departure from controlled flight.
Re the SU-35 demo, can we identify any portion of the demo where the plane has departed from controlled flight i.e. ballistic?

[haavarla]

Yes that is the issue here.
With the Su-35S flight profile display in mind. There would be plenty of wing stall, but can we really say it has departed from controlled flight?
The TVC seems to keep the jet in controll at all time.

In this vid it is very Clear how much the pilot focus on Airspeed, Altitude and Engine parameters.
The Pilots seems very much in controll over an crowd of 100.000 People.
Just like any other pilot and jet doing flight dispaly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dsy-3GQgy8

[zwz]

Is the Su-35 maneuver really more aggressive than F-22?
Take the tail slide as example:

Look, the TVC deflection is close to its maximum (15 deg), but it only achieves a pitch down rate of about 50deg/sec.

By contrast, F-22 has a pitch down rate of 90deg/sec (2008 faubourg show)

[zero-one]

I may be mistaken, but it looks from the vids like the Russians fly a much more aggressive airshow display vs. their American counterparts..

Not really. I've compared the F-22 against some Su-30,35 and Mig 29 OTV demos. and so far heres my take.

1. The 1st part of an F-22 demo is to do a maximum performance take-ff where the raptor snaps it's nose to 90 degrees vertical and accelerates while climbing straight up.

so far I have yet to see a Russian bird do this, Flanker take offs are quite mild where they slowly increase the angle till they get to 90

(if anybody has videos of a Sukhoi "Snap take-off" please post it here)

2. Minimum radius turns isn't made to make the smallest circle possible, instead they try to make a small circle while maintaining as much "E" as possible, In this regard the Raptor and the Su are closely matched

but if we are to take into account fuel loads, this maneuver is one of the earliest maneuvers in an F-22 demo which means it should still have a lot of fuel in its tanks by this time,

how much fuel the Flanker is carrying, I dont know, but if its small then that means an almost fully fueled raptor can turn as well if not better than a lightly fueled Flanker.

3. The famous Cobra is done on most flanker displays and looks truely impresive, why the Raptor doesn't do this is beyond me, maybe because its a Russian maneuver

but I have no doubt that the Raptor can do this, The J turn looks remarkably like a cobra, once the nose goes vertical, instead of snaping it back down like in a cobra, the J turn requires you to yaw the nose down, its more difficult to do in my oppinion then the Cobra.

4. The power loop and the Kulbit also looks very similar in my eyes, this is by far my favorite maneuver, where the Raptor makes the smallest loop possible forcing anything behind to overshoot.

IMHO, this is useful even if the bandit isn't at your 6 o'clock,


Note: I am open to correction so please tell me if I'm mistaken

[haavarla]

Pretty much agree Zero-one.

But ever sinse the Su-35S entered the world Arena. Starting from MAKS 2011, 100year Aniversity of VVS 2012 and latley Paris Airshow 2013.
The Su-35S has introduced New flight display routines. Even the older Su-35/37 can't do these kind of manuveres.

Like this Barrel Roll slide, don't know if it has an official name yet..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02qX9Rv ... H_7uFO8Bqh

[zwz]

Power loop and kulbit are not the same maneuver. Power loop requires the plane to climb up a little bit at the entry of the loop.

[fastestbird]

THIS IS AN ILLUSION.

I want to prove that: the F-22 showed better performance (especially higher nose pointing rate), but Su-35 gave you an overall better and nimble feeling, that is what I call "illusion".

And, I analyzed the reason of such illusion. That's it.

Sorry about this, but I must say that almost everything you have wrote on this thread is indeed an illusion.

At the end of the "departure" you mentioned, F-22 did an amazing pitch (almost 200deg/sec) to resume normal dive. I haven't seen Su-35BM or MIG-29OVT or SU-30MKI acheive simular pitch rate. Also, during the spin, the raptor acheived a yaw rate of almost 200 deg/sec. Raptor does not need to to it frequently, one time is enough to prove it's competence.

It is already known that "maneuver" no. 2 in video presented as "spin roll" is in fact deliberate departure from controlled flight.
Pitch and yaw rates you are talking about are quite normal for that condition because they are caused by UNCONTROLLED inertial forces. In other words that is not a maneuver.

Here is another classic example just for comparison, type:

F-16 Loss of Control, Test Pilot on Yaw Departure

You have the same high pitch and yaw rates for F-16 in excess of 120°/s which is of course abnormal condition for that plane.
You can find departure videos for almost every plane on you tube and in every case you have extremely high pitch or yaw rates.

the last tail slide proves everything.

Su-35 spends 3 seconds to pitch down a little bit more than 100deg (from not vertical nose up to not vertical nose down), even though its nozzle deflection is almost maximum.

F-22 spends 2 seconds to pitch down 180 deg.

That sequence (tail slide) unfortunately proves that you are not aware that Su-35 is doing more complicated action. He is pitching down and yawing to the left side at the same time which is clearly seen on the video.



We can see that plane has differential nozzle deflection. Left nozzle plume vector is pointing down and left at the same time and right nozzle is pointing up and left. You can also see left rudder deflection and differential tail deflection.
Because of that the plane doesn`t have the fastest pitch down rate. For that you need to have simultaneous nozzle and aerodynamic control surface deflection. In fact F-22 can`t do this move in such control as Su-35 does because he lacks TVC control for yaw and roll.

Talking about fast pitch rates here is one very fast at 1:29 sec of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eClkTdqAU8w

It does 180° in less than 2 seconds. And that is Su-30MKI that is inferior to Su-35S.

Raptor can use asymmetric control surface deflection to generate yaw moment. It's lower moment of inertia helps it to yaw faster.

First sentence is right, but the second is wrong. For example, in controlled spin or "helicopter" maneuver Su-35S has more than double yaw turn rate speed because he can use TVC which is much more efficient in post stall than conventional control surfaces F-22 is using.

Type:

F-22 vs Su-30 Su-35 Amazing performance in the air

At 4:28 you can use stopwatch. It is very nice comparison for that maneuver, but most of the other maneuvers in this video are apples to oranges.

This is all for now because I`m a bit tight with time. In few days I`ll try to respond to your other mistakes.

Edit:

I`m sorry, but for now I can`t find the right way to post video or photo links

[zwz]

We can see that plane has differential nozzle deflection. Left nozzle plume vector is pointing down and left at the same time and right nozzle is pointing up and left. You can also see left rudder deflection and differential tail deflection.
Because of that the plane doesn`t have the fastest pitch down rate. For that you need to have simultaneous nozzle and aerodynamic control surface deflection.

Really?
The right nozzle is pitching up? The left nozzle is pitching left?
Why do I see them both pitching down to maximum?