F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 10:11
by linkomart
From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:
Even after the US Air Force's fleet of Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor air superiority fighters starts receiving full Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder high off-boresight missle capability in 2017, the aircraft needs a helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) to use the weapon to its full potential. That is even taking into account the AIM-9X Block I and Block II's helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) capability.

"Without a helmet, that means the missile will need a very tight cue from somewhere," one F-22 pilot says. "[That's] something that is not always available in a dynamic, turning environment."


Helmet sight is IMHO one of the best and most neglected tools in a dogfight. If you have a hobs missile, of course.

My 5 cent

RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 14:23
by munny
Wrong forum and around 4 days late

RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 15:09
by wrightwing
This isn't really news to me, but it's nice to see-

At longer ranges, the Block II AIM-9X, especially, will be a huge improvement for the Raptor. "LOAL [Lock-on after Launch] is great for the longer range shots, which will be nice as it basically gives us an additional two BVR [beyond visual range] weapons," the pilot says.

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 00:04
by count_to_10
wrightwing wrote:This isn't really news to me, but it's nice to see-

At longer ranges, the Block II AIM-9X, especially, will be a huge improvement for the Raptor. "LOAL [Lock-on after Launch] is great for the longer range shots, which will be nice as it basically gives us an additional two BVR [beyond visual range] weapons," the pilot says.

With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 16:21
by linkomart
count_to_10 wrote:With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?


I doubt that, It's not just to throw a missile in and close the door, you need to have a launcher rail, blast deflector, you need clearance between the missiles, and between the missiles and the structure.
But I have not seen the F-22 in person, so it is plausible that I'm wrong....

my 5 cent

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 18:43
by wrightwing
I seriously doubt there's room for 2 per bay, clipped wings or not.

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 21:49
by mcraptor
Author is obviously a little high on drugs with the last statement:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 22:45
by pfo
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?

RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 23:30
by discofishing
"F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9X"

The JHMCS or the Scorpion? I think the Scorpion is better.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 17:11
by mcraptor
pfo wrote:
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?

Yeah. It best watch out for those Mirages before it get its HMCS. :lol: :lol:

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2013, 00:22
by Scorpion1alpha
pfo wrote:
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?


That article's "journalist" should have explained things better.

Although 3rd & 4th Gen fighters are outclassed by the F-22, any fighter armed with a helmet (or even some type of archaic sighting or cueing system) and a HOBS missile gives them a credible capability that can help them even the odds better at BFM. That's why you never underestimate anyone, no matter what they're flying.

For example, that means if an F-22 is up against an upgraded MiG-21 with a helmet and R-73 (AA-11) Archers and for some reason has to go to the merge (unlikely as the F-22 driver will dictate and decide if he wants this to happen or not), the F-22 will be all over the Bison. However, the F-22 driver will have to be very aware of both aircraft's positioning to be sure not to get within the Archer's WEZ.

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2013, 08:20
by sketch22
linkomart wrote:
count_to_10 wrote:With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?


I doubt that, It's not just to throw a missile in and close the door, you need to have a launcher rail, blast deflector, you need clearance between the missiles, and between the missiles and the structure.
But I have not seen the F-22 in person, so it is plausible that I'm wrong....

my 5 cent

Good points, but having seen an open side weapons bay up close (actually looking up inside it) I can say that there is room for two 9X's but it would require a drastic refit of all the components in them. If you look inside the bay you'll notice that behind the launch rail are practically hundreds of wires, small components boxes, and structural parts that would have to be moved around.

That being said, from what I've seen I would bet that with a highly modified dual launch rail it could be possible.

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2013, 01:57
by count_to_10
That being said, from what I've seen I would bet that with a highly modified dual launch rail it could be possible.


More or less of what I was thinking.
Though, by the time you do that, there may be an ejection compatible sidewinder.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantag

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 22:34
by southernphantom
mcraptor wrote:Author is obviously a little high on drugs with the last statement:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.



Well, an F-4E AUP is not too shabby; though technically a third-generation fighter, it is probably a 4 to 4+ generation in terms of capability.

RUN!!! It's a Super Entendard!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2013, 03:25
by munny
pfo wrote:Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?


I think I read it on the Raytheon site in relation to the AIM-9X, but they said that an aircraft with a helmet mounted sight will defeat a similar aircraft without the helmet by a ratio of 50:1 in WVR dogfighting, surely this would bring less advanced aircraft within range of being a threat in a dogfight.

The idea is to not allow them to get to that situation. The F-22 still holds all the cards at long range and also on approach to the merge.

It is currently missing a few upgrades due to there being no urgent necessity. It doesn't require an IRST as there are no enemy stealth fighters to counter.

It doesn't need the side looking cheek arrays as there are no enemy stealth fighters and there's no threat that requires the F-22 to greatly reduce enemy a-pole range while it provides mid-course guidance to its shots.

It doesn't urgently require the helmet because currently there is no other aircraft fast enough and with good enough sensors that can force the F-22 into a close range fight (orders during exercises don't count).

RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2013, 16:34
by cerberus
I was surprised to learn that some MiG-21s had HMCS but AFAIK none have the weaponry to fully exploit it. The only missile they have with off-boresight performance is the R-73, which only offers 60 degrees and has no lock-after-launch ability, so they would still need to point at what they're shooting, which might not be easy if it's an F-22.

In loose theory though even a Tucano armed with AIM-9X and HMCS could cause a Raptor problems WVR if looking and firing is all that's required. I'm not sure whether it's that simple though. Would backwinders have the same hit rate as forward shots?

EO/IR search and track offers many advantages over just radar. It has greater round aircraft coverage and can (as the F-35 demonstarted) be used to detect and track enemies who fire weapons or missiles. In the event of an enemy closing from a bad angle, that could be beneficial. You could not only detect them but immediately return fire with inertially guided missiles.

Against 4th gen aircraft the advantage in detection range falls to the radar of the F-22 but against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.

Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2013, 03:01
by Scorpion1alpha
cerberus wrote:Against 4th gen aircraft...against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.


Yeah...and you and others still think AIM-9Xs hanging off the wing on pylons is still stealthy?

:roll:

The F-35 needs to be clean to be stealthy, which also means no 9Xs hanging off the wing. So you want to be stealthy, then no 9Xs (take the supposedly internal carriage ASRAAM out of the equation as it's no guarantee at this point). No 9Xs then you probably don't want to think about BFM-ing any 4th Gen fighter because we all heard how "disappointing" (to emphasize that mildly) the F-35's kinematics is turning out to be.

Thank goodness we have the F-22s that we have. It has more advantages.

Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 19:57
by batu731
Sometimes I wonder if the AF intentionally left HMCS&AIM9X out of F-22, they feared if the raptor pilots had such capability, they would've had a bad habit of entering dogfights prematurely. LOL

alas, IMO, the F-22's doctrine should be similar to that of nuclear submarines, i.e. hunt, kill, and egress. Dogfight is so 20th century, 9g jet against 50g missile, its not smart people's doing, esp. when you have the ability to avoid it from the first place.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantag

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 20:43
by SpudmanWP
4 Reasons why F-22 did not have 9X and HMD at IOC:

1.Money
2.Money
3.Time
4.Money

At the time of F-22 SDD, there was no such animal as a AIM-9X. There were HMDs, but they were not put in due to cost cutting measures (along with AIRST, Cheek AESA arrays, etc)

Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 01:27
by count_to_10
Scorpion1alpha wrote:
cerberus wrote:Against 4th gen aircraft...against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.


Yeah...and you and others still think AIM-9Xs hanging off the wing on pylons is still stealthy?

:roll:

The F-35 needs to be clean to be stealthy, which also means no 9Xs hanging off the wing. So you want to be stealthy, then no 9Xs (take the supposedly internal carriage ASRAAM out of the equation as it's no guarantee at this point). No 9Xs then you probably don't want to think about BFM-ing any 4th Gen fighter because we all heard how "disappointing" (to emphasize that mildly) the F-35's kinematics is turning out to be.

Thank goodness we have the F-22s that we have. It has more advantages.

Aren't those "disapointing kinematics" still superior to armed F-16's and F-18's?

Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2013, 21:56
by Scorpion1alpha
count_to_10 wrote:Aren't those "disapointing kinematics" still superior to armed F-16's and F-18's?


Maybe so. But the question is: by how much? It also depends on who you talk to. Lockheed wants to assure the partner nations and convince the world’s future potential markets that it is (some metrics similar, some way more). Many others say wait a minute, that’s not the whole story.

How much flight testing has been completed after 6yrs since 1st flight? Also, OT guys haven’t even evaluated it yet.

So, who are you going to believe?

Like I said before, I’m glad we at least have the F-22s that we have for the air dominance role. With the MANY, MANY problems the F-35 is having at this point I would be happy for my Air Force to purchase USAF-optimized F-16 Blk60s instead. We can probably finish development, testing and field them in larger numbers than we could instead of waiting, throwing money at, waiting, throwing more money at and waiting some more and throwing even more money at the F-35.

I wish the F-22 had such support.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantag

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 01:48
by count_to_10
I wish the F-22 had such support.

It didn't? A lot of us were disappointed when they shut down production early.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantag

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 03:48
by SpudmanWP
The F-35 is not unique in its issues. Here are just some that the F-22 had:

1. 1992 YF-22 crashed
2. 2004 Production F-22 crashed
3. Numerous Post-IOC crashes related to the OBOGS system
4. Infamous International Dateline issue
5. Numerous, very expensive upgrades just to use modern weapons (AIM-120D, 9x, SDB, etc)
6. Numerous and extensive structural issues
7. Can’t share data with non F-22’s
8. Delays in testing
9. Large delays in IOC
10. Major redesign of the wing construction
11. Relaxed vulnerability standards to due to lack of onboard fire suppression systems for the weapon bays.
12. Not meeting range requirements due to increase in SFC
13. Not meeting per-year flight test schedules
14. etc, etc, etc

Despite all this (and much more, just read the OT&E reports) you could not find a F-15C pilot who would be happy with just having a F-15E.

I wonder why?

It’s very simple; they know how programs are, what it takes to get the jet you want, and what the jet’s potential is, especially compared to the generation of jets they are leaving behind.

The same hold’s true for the F-35. Just like the F-22’s problems, they either have already been or soon will be solved. It’s all part of the normal development process.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full adva

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 05:00
by Scorpion1alpha
count_to_10 wrote:
I wish the F-22 had such support.

It didn't?


I should elaborate. The F-22 had support, particularly from the majority of the Air Force leadership and rank and file guys. It also got it from certain members of the House and Senate. But there are also those that didn't. Most of all, it didn't get it from where it needed it the most, OSD and Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama.

count_to_10 wrote:
I wish the F-22 had such support.

A lot of us were disappointed when they shut down production early.


A lot of us were...a lot of us were.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 06:01
by SpudmanWP
Me too.. :(

If for no other reason than to spread the cost of new developments around to more airframes thereby ensuring more updates in a timely and affordable manner (a major plus for the F-35).

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full adva

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 07:17
by checksixx
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35 is not unique in its issues. Here are just some that the F-22 had:

1. 1992 YF-22 crashed
2. 2004 Production F-22 crashed
3. Numerous Post-IOC crashes related to the OBOGS system
4. Infamous International Dateline issue
5. Numerous, very expensive upgrades just to use modern weapons (AIM-120D, 9x, SDB, etc)
6. Numerous and extensive structural issues
7. Can’t share data with non F-22’s
8. Delays in testing
9. Large delays in IOC
10. Major redesign of the wing construction
11. Relaxed vulnerability standards to due to lack of onboard fire suppression systems for the weapon bays.
12. Not meeting range requirements due to increase in SFC
13. Not meeting per-year flight test schedules
14. etc, etc, etc


Just to correct a few things...

1. The YF-22 was NOT a F-22.

3. There was ONE crash due to OBOGS, not numerous.

5. Of course no other aircraft are currently using -120D's either as it is still in testing. F-22 doesn't have HMD and therefore -9x wasn't a priority.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 07:24
by SpudmanWP
My point was that despite its many problems (that were or will be solved) the F-22 is still such a valuable program that its pilots (and the ones who wish they were) would not trade it for anything else flying, especially a step back into a 4th gen jet.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 07:52
by geogen
Perhaps a simple, poor-man's 'Mig-29-style' Helmet-mounted sight could be attached to the standard F-22 helmet? Integrate the sight with the existing AAR-56 MLD system, updated to better exploit capability of the MLD sensor's multi-spectral situational awareness potential? The MLD wouldn't necessarily need to project the visual display on a special helmet display. Correct? Perhaps the MLD could thus act as built-in cueing to the LOAL IR missile and possibly also couple with a voice-command target-designating upgrade, interfaced w/ the simple bolt-on HMS system?

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 15:44
by SpudmanWP
Lockheed has already stated that they can upgrade the MLD and give it A2A EODAS capabilities. It’s up to the DoD to pay for it.

From what I have read, the problem with a HMD in the F-22 is mapping and syncing it to the cockpit.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take f

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 23:09
by BDF
SpudmanWP wrote:Lockheed has already stated that they can upgrade the MLD and give it A2A EODAS capabilities. It’s up to the DoD to pay for it.

From what I have read, the problem with a HMD in the F-22 is mapping and syncing it to the cockpit.


The new JHMCS II uses an optointertial head tracker so the mapping problem wouldn't be an issue. Now integrating it with the Raptor's avionics, well that's another issue entirely...

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to ta

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 23:38
by SpudmanWP
Good to hear... now we just need the budget....

F-22 to finally test a HMD later this year

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 02:49
by BDF
USAF to evaluate Scorpion HMD on F-22 Raptor


By: Dave Majumdar Las Vegas
Flight International

Link Here



US Air Force operational testers at Nellis AFB, Nevada, are preparing to evaluate the Visionix Scorpion helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) on the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor later this year.

"We absolutely hope to have the Scorpion helmet [on the Raptor]," says Col Robert Novotny, commander of the 53rd Test and Evaluation Group (53rd TEG), which investigates new technologies and tactics for the service. "We think we'll get into that business this summer."

Novotny cautions that while work is underway to investigate adding the new helmet -mounted display, a test plan has not been formally approved just yet. "We're figuring out what's required, what are the issues," he says.

Even so, the new full-colour lightweight paddle-shaped display has made a very positive impression on the Raptor community. "Everybody really likes the Scorpion," Novotny says. "Everybody wants the helmet and we're trying to work our way forward."

The integration of the Scorpion onto the Raptor will pave the way for the fifth-generation air-superiority fighter to take full advantage of the Raytheon AIM-9X high off-boresight (HOBS) dogfighting missile. "So if we can get that in the jet, and then we can get them an off-boresight heat-seeking missile like the AIM-9X," Novotny says. "[Adding the AIM-9X is a] little bit further off. We want to get this done because we'll bring some great capability to the pilot, as all helmets do, and give them the off-boresight later."

The Raptor is expected to receive a "rudimentary" capability to use the weapon in 2015. Full integration of the AIM-9X is expected in 2017 when the Raptor's Increment 3.2B upgrade is fielded.

The F-22 community considers the addition of a HMCS and the AIM-9X to the Raptor to be vital. Even though the jet grossly outperforms other aircraft at the "merge", the Raptor can be at a disadvantage once it transitions into the visual arena against a threat aircraft equipped with a HMCS and HOBS missile.

The addition of the Scorpion and AIM-9X will also allow for "heads out" multi-targeting of enemy aircraft while approaching the merge, which will help the Raptor in scenarios where it is outnumbered, says one highly experienced F-22 pilot. Given the small size of the F-22 fleet, that "will be about all the time these days," the pilot says.

Generally speaking, Novotny-who has had years of experience flying as an aggressor against the Raptor--says one is usually not aware of being attacked by a F-22 until it is too late. That is because even at the merge, a pilot flying against a Raptor does not know where the F-22 is coming from due to its stealth capabilities.

However, once engaged in a classic dogfight, "I have a chance," Novotny says. The outcome of visual range encounters is largely dependent on individual pilot skill, he notes.

The addition of the Scorpion and AIM-9X would ensure the USAF's small Raptor fleet, which only numbers 184, retains its advantage even during a within visual range encounter.

RE: F-22 to finally test a HMD later this year

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2013, 07:50
by discofishing
Scorpion? Imagine that!

RE: F-22 to finally test a HMD later this year

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2013, 08:16
by linkomart

RE: F-22 to finally test a HMD later this year

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2013, 18:28
by BDF
Um, I posted that Flight Global piece a week ago...

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 13:22
by zero-one
Just a quick question about the Aim-9X
turns out, the French Mica missile can feed IR data to the Rafale's sensor fusion engine and act as an external sensor.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 80%9D.html
infra-red guided version of MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. “MICA is not just a missile, it’s an extra sensor as well,” says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.


I was wondering if the 9X can do the same giving the Raptor some form of IRST.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 13:34
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I'm going to say no. The raptor was built around the AIM-9M which was not an IIR missile. In addition, Mica is always exposed, raptor has to open a door to expose a sidewinder. Mica is also carried on a wingtip so it has a clear view (I am aware they can be under the wing i.e. body too) while the sidewinder is carried on the side of the body where its field of view is much more limited. And why does our matter if Mica can do this? Is the sensor in the missile better than the OSF?

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 14:13
by mixelflick
Integration of the scorpion helmet will happen, and it will happen when its needed most - before Russia or China can field meaningful numbers of SU-57's/J-20's.

Not that I think either is going to get close, but the Raptor roadmap is going to keep it one step ahead until PCA gets here. It is $ well spent, given some of the oddball situations the Raptor finds itself in (like escorting TU-160's, with SU-30/SU-35 escorts). That unfortunately exposes the Raptor to a hell of a nose pointer, that also has the gas necessary to engage in lots of afterburner on their part, if need be.

Granted, Raptor will approach from an advantageous position, but the stunts these Russian pilots pull can be unpredictable. Someone on their side gets stupid, the Scorpion/9x block II will provided the edge necessary to counter.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 18:22
by zero-one
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: And why does our matter if Mica can do this? Is the sensor in the missile better than the OSF?


Hmmmm that is bizarre,
Maybe it can act as a MWR, I don't know. But if Mica can do this to any platform, then it should be very attractive to export customers.

Imagine needing to buy just half as many IRST pods and simply arming some of your escort fighters with MICAs.
I mean the chances of you actually firing your IIR missile in combat is very slim to begin with, the Aim-9X has been operational for 16 years and has been fired once.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 18:46
by disconnectedradical
A better solution would be actual IRST onboard. Originally there was supposed to be a chin mounted IRST but that was removed to save costs. Some sources say there is still requirement for the space, so hope when F-22 MLU comes there would be an IRST.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 18:47
by sprstdlyscottsmn
It doesn't matter if the missile has the ability to gather IR data and send it to the aircraft if the aircraft is not wired to receive the information and use/fuze it.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 19:43
by marauder2048
I'm also skeptical than an externally carried IIR missile subjected to continuous aerodynamic heating
is going to be able to operate for very long with a typical cooling circuit.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 02:03
by charlielima223
disconnectedradical wrote:A better solution would be actual IRST onboard. Originally there was supposed to be a chin mounted IRST but that was removed to save costs. Some sources say there is still requirement for the space, so hope when F-22 MLU comes there would be an IRST.


I've never read anything about that except in some F-22C concept...
Image
As far as I can tell the original placements for the IRST was originally to be housed in thr wing-roots... one on each side.
Image

The F-22 was supposed to have side mounted radars in the nose. As far as I know that space still exists and isnt currently being used. I read in an article that the F-22 unfortunately doesnt have much space to accomodate a dedicated IRST. I would think they would overhaul the AN/AAR-56 MLD to give it more capability like tracking, ID, and cueing.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 02:10
by Corsair1963
"charlielima223"

I've never read anything about that except in some F-22C concept...



Pure fiction........ :?

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 00:38
by wrightwing
Part of the MLU for the F-22 is a "new sensor" to use in addition to radar and ESM, to find low RCS targets.