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F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 10:11
by linkomart
From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:
Even after the US Air Force's fleet of Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor air superiority fighters starts receiving full Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder high off-boresight missle capability in 2017, the aircraft needs a helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS) to use the weapon to its full potential. That is even taking into account the AIM-9X Block I and Block II's helmetless high off-boresight (HHOBS) capability.

"Without a helmet, that means the missile will need a very tight cue from somewhere," one F-22 pilot says. "[That's] something that is not always available in a dynamic, turning environment."


Helmet sight is IMHO one of the best and most neglected tools in a dogfight. If you have a hobs missile, of course.

My 5 cent

RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 14:23
by munny
Wrong forum and around 4 days late

RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2013, 15:09
by wrightwing
This isn't really news to me, but it's nice to see-

At longer ranges, the Block II AIM-9X, especially, will be a huge improvement for the Raptor. "LOAL [Lock-on after Launch] is great for the longer range shots, which will be nice as it basically gives us an additional two BVR [beyond visual range] weapons," the pilot says.

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 00:04
by count_to_10
wrightwing wrote:This isn't really news to me, but it's nice to see-

At longer ranges, the Block II AIM-9X, especially, will be a huge improvement for the Raptor. "LOAL [Lock-on after Launch] is great for the longer range shots, which will be nice as it basically gives us an additional two BVR [beyond visual range] weapons," the pilot says.

With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 16:21
by linkomart
count_to_10 wrote:With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?


I doubt that, It's not just to throw a missile in and close the door, you need to have a launcher rail, blast deflector, you need clearance between the missiles, and between the missiles and the structure.
But I have not seen the F-22 in person, so it is plausible that I'm wrong....

my 5 cent

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2013, 18:43
by wrightwing
I seriously doubt there's room for 2 per bay, clipped wings or not.

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 21:49
by mcraptor
Author is obviously a little high on drugs with the last statement:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 22:45
by pfo
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?

RE: Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 23:30
by discofishing
"F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9X"

The JHMCS or the Scorpion? I think the Scorpion is better.

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 17:11
by mcraptor
pfo wrote:
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?

Yeah. It best watch out for those Mirages before it get its HMCS. :lol: :lol:

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2013, 00:22
by Scorpion1alpha
pfo wrote:
linkomart wrote:From Flight global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... im-9x.html

From the link:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.

Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?


That article's "journalist" should have explained things better.

Although 3rd & 4th Gen fighters are outclassed by the F-22, any fighter armed with a helmet (or even some type of archaic sighting or cueing system) and a HOBS missile gives them a credible capability that can help them even the odds better at BFM. That's why you never underestimate anyone, no matter what they're flying.

For example, that means if an F-22 is up against an upgraded MiG-21 with a helmet and R-73 (AA-11) Archers and for some reason has to go to the merge (unlikely as the F-22 driver will dictate and decide if he wants this to happen or not), the F-22 will be all over the Bison. However, the F-22 driver will have to be very aware of both aircraft's positioning to be sure not to get within the Archer's WEZ.

Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2013, 08:20
by sketch22
linkomart wrote:
count_to_10 wrote:With clipped fins, is it possible that they could fit two of them in each bay?


I doubt that, It's not just to throw a missile in and close the door, you need to have a launcher rail, blast deflector, you need clearance between the missiles, and between the missiles and the structure.
But I have not seen the F-22 in person, so it is plausible that I'm wrong....

my 5 cent

Good points, but having seen an open side weapons bay up close (actually looking up inside it) I can say that there is room for two 9X's but it would require a drastic refit of all the components in them. If you look inside the bay you'll notice that behind the launch rail are practically hundreds of wires, small components boxes, and structural parts that would have to be moved around.

That being said, from what I've seen I would bet that with a highly modified dual launch rail it could be possible.

RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2013, 01:57
by count_to_10
That being said, from what I've seen I would bet that with a highly modified dual launch rail it could be possible.


More or less of what I was thinking.
Though, by the time you do that, there may be an ejection compatible sidewinder.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantag

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 22:34
by southernphantom
mcraptor wrote:Author is obviously a little high on drugs with the last statement:

The huge advantage offered by such a high off-boresight missile in combination with a HMCS may give a third or fourth-generation fighter a decided edge over the fifth-generation Raptor (with AIM-9Ms) in a visual range encounter.



Well, an F-4E AUP is not too shabby; though technically a third-generation fighter, it is probably a 4 to 4+ generation in terms of capability.

RUN!!! It's a Super Entendard!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2013, 03:25
by munny
pfo wrote:Even third-generation? So even Mig 21 Bison (HMCS, AA-11) or Mig 21 Lancer (HMCS, Python-5) are dangerous for F-22 in WVR?


I think I read it on the Raytheon site in relation to the AIM-9X, but they said that an aircraft with a helmet mounted sight will defeat a similar aircraft without the helmet by a ratio of 50:1 in WVR dogfighting, surely this would bring less advanced aircraft within range of being a threat in a dogfight.

The idea is to not allow them to get to that situation. The F-22 still holds all the cards at long range and also on approach to the merge.

It is currently missing a few upgrades due to there being no urgent necessity. It doesn't require an IRST as there are no enemy stealth fighters to counter.

It doesn't need the side looking cheek arrays as there are no enemy stealth fighters and there's no threat that requires the F-22 to greatly reduce enemy a-pole range while it provides mid-course guidance to its shots.

It doesn't urgently require the helmet because currently there is no other aircraft fast enough and with good enough sensors that can force the F-22 into a close range fight (orders during exercises don't count).