F-22 Raptor needs HMCS to take full advantage of AIM-9x

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cerberus

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Unread post12 Feb 2013, 16:34

I was surprised to learn that some MiG-21s had HMCS but AFAIK none have the weaponry to fully exploit it. The only missile they have with off-boresight performance is the R-73, which only offers 60 degrees and has no lock-after-launch ability, so they would still need to point at what they're shooting, which might not be easy if it's an F-22.

In loose theory though even a Tucano armed with AIM-9X and HMCS could cause a Raptor problems WVR if looking and firing is all that's required. I'm not sure whether it's that simple though. Would backwinders have the same hit rate as forward shots?

EO/IR search and track offers many advantages over just radar. It has greater round aircraft coverage and can (as the F-35 demonstarted) be used to detect and track enemies who fire weapons or missiles. In the event of an enemy closing from a bad angle, that could be beneficial. You could not only detect them but immediately return fire with inertially guided missiles.

Against 4th gen aircraft the advantage in detection range falls to the radar of the F-22 but against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.
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Unread post18 Feb 2013, 03:01

cerberus wrote:Against 4th gen aircraft...against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.


Yeah...and you and others still think AIM-9Xs hanging off the wing on pylons is still stealthy?

:roll:

The F-35 needs to be clean to be stealthy, which also means no 9Xs hanging off the wing. So you want to be stealthy, then no 9Xs (take the supposedly internal carriage ASRAAM out of the equation as it's no guarantee at this point). No 9Xs then you probably don't want to think about BFM-ing any 4th Gen fighter because we all heard how "disappointing" (to emphasize that mildly) the F-35's kinematics is turning out to be.

Thank goodness we have the F-22s that we have. It has more advantages.
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Unread post22 Feb 2013, 19:57

Sometimes I wonder if the AF intentionally left HMCS&AIM9X out of F-22, they feared if the raptor pilots had such capability, they would've had a bad habit of entering dogfights prematurely. LOL

alas, IMO, the F-22's doctrine should be similar to that of nuclear submarines, i.e. hunt, kill, and egress. Dogfight is so 20th century, 9g jet against 50g missile, its not smart people's doing, esp. when you have the ability to avoid it from the first place.
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Unread post22 Feb 2013, 20:43

4 Reasons why F-22 did not have 9X and HMD at IOC:

1.Money
2.Money
3.Time
4.Money

At the time of F-22 SDD, there was no such animal as a AIM-9X. There were HMDs, but they were not put in due to cost cutting measures (along with AIRST, Cheek AESA arrays, etc)
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Unread post23 Feb 2013, 01:27

Scorpion1alpha wrote:
cerberus wrote:Against 4th gen aircraft...against an F-35 I'm not convinced that radar will out-gun the F-35's EOST for range or all-aspect coverage. Add that to the F-35 helmet and throw in some AIM-9X, and I think everything favours the F-35.


Yeah...and you and others still think AIM-9Xs hanging off the wing on pylons is still stealthy?

:roll:

The F-35 needs to be clean to be stealthy, which also means no 9Xs hanging off the wing. So you want to be stealthy, then no 9Xs (take the supposedly internal carriage ASRAAM out of the equation as it's no guarantee at this point). No 9Xs then you probably don't want to think about BFM-ing any 4th Gen fighter because we all heard how "disappointing" (to emphasize that mildly) the F-35's kinematics is turning out to be.

Thank goodness we have the F-22s that we have. It has more advantages.

Aren't those "disapointing kinematics" still superior to armed F-16's and F-18's?
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Unread post25 Feb 2013, 21:56

count_to_10 wrote:Aren't those "disapointing kinematics" still superior to armed F-16's and F-18's?


Maybe so. But the question is: by how much? It also depends on who you talk to. Lockheed wants to assure the partner nations and convince the world’s future potential markets that it is (some metrics similar, some way more). Many others say wait a minute, that’s not the whole story.

How much flight testing has been completed after 6yrs since 1st flight? Also, OT guys haven’t even evaluated it yet.

So, who are you going to believe?

Like I said before, I’m glad we at least have the F-22s that we have for the air dominance role. With the MANY, MANY problems the F-35 is having at this point I would be happy for my Air Force to purchase USAF-optimized F-16 Blk60s instead. We can probably finish development, testing and field them in larger numbers than we could instead of waiting, throwing money at, waiting, throwing more money at and waiting some more and throwing even more money at the F-35.

I wish the F-22 had such support.
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 01:48

I wish the F-22 had such support.

It didn't? A lot of us were disappointed when they shut down production early.
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 03:48

The F-35 is not unique in its issues. Here are just some that the F-22 had:

1. 1992 YF-22 crashed
2. 2004 Production F-22 crashed
3. Numerous Post-IOC crashes related to the OBOGS system
4. Infamous International Dateline issue
5. Numerous, very expensive upgrades just to use modern weapons (AIM-120D, 9x, SDB, etc)
6. Numerous and extensive structural issues
7. Can’t share data with non F-22’s
8. Delays in testing
9. Large delays in IOC
10. Major redesign of the wing construction
11. Relaxed vulnerability standards to due to lack of onboard fire suppression systems for the weapon bays.
12. Not meeting range requirements due to increase in SFC
13. Not meeting per-year flight test schedules
14. etc, etc, etc

Despite all this (and much more, just read the OT&E reports) you could not find a F-15C pilot who would be happy with just having a F-15E.

I wonder why?

It’s very simple; they know how programs are, what it takes to get the jet you want, and what the jet’s potential is, especially compared to the generation of jets they are leaving behind.

The same hold’s true for the F-35. Just like the F-22’s problems, they either have already been or soon will be solved. It’s all part of the normal development process.
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 05:00

count_to_10 wrote:
I wish the F-22 had such support.

It didn't?


I should elaborate. The F-22 had support, particularly from the majority of the Air Force leadership and rank and file guys. It also got it from certain members of the House and Senate. But there are also those that didn't. Most of all, it didn't get it from where it needed it the most, OSD and Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama.

count_to_10 wrote:
I wish the F-22 had such support.

A lot of us were disappointed when they shut down production early.


A lot of us were...a lot of us were.
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 06:01

Me too.. :(

If for no other reason than to spread the cost of new developments around to more airframes thereby ensuring more updates in a timely and affordable manner (a major plus for the F-35).
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 07:17

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35 is not unique in its issues. Here are just some that the F-22 had:

1. 1992 YF-22 crashed
2. 2004 Production F-22 crashed
3. Numerous Post-IOC crashes related to the OBOGS system
4. Infamous International Dateline issue
5. Numerous, very expensive upgrades just to use modern weapons (AIM-120D, 9x, SDB, etc)
6. Numerous and extensive structural issues
7. Can’t share data with non F-22’s
8. Delays in testing
9. Large delays in IOC
10. Major redesign of the wing construction
11. Relaxed vulnerability standards to due to lack of onboard fire suppression systems for the weapon bays.
12. Not meeting range requirements due to increase in SFC
13. Not meeting per-year flight test schedules
14. etc, etc, etc


Just to correct a few things...

1. The YF-22 was NOT a F-22.

3. There was ONE crash due to OBOGS, not numerous.

5. Of course no other aircraft are currently using -120D's either as it is still in testing. F-22 doesn't have HMD and therefore -9x wasn't a priority.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 07:24

My point was that despite its many problems (that were or will be solved) the F-22 is still such a valuable program that its pilots (and the ones who wish they were) would not trade it for anything else flying, especially a step back into a 4th gen jet.
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 07:52

Perhaps a simple, poor-man's 'Mig-29-style' Helmet-mounted sight could be attached to the standard F-22 helmet? Integrate the sight with the existing AAR-56 MLD system, updated to better exploit capability of the MLD sensor's multi-spectral situational awareness potential? The MLD wouldn't necessarily need to project the visual display on a special helmet display. Correct? Perhaps the MLD could thus act as built-in cueing to the LOAL IR missile and possibly also couple with a voice-command target-designating upgrade, interfaced w/ the simple bolt-on HMS system?
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Unread post26 Feb 2013, 15:44

Lockheed has already stated that they can upgrade the MLD and give it A2A EODAS capabilities. It’s up to the DoD to pay for it.

From what I have read, the problem with a HMD in the F-22 is mapping and syncing it to the cockpit.
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Unread post27 Feb 2013, 23:09

SpudmanWP wrote:Lockheed has already stated that they can upgrade the MLD and give it A2A EODAS capabilities. It’s up to the DoD to pay for it.

From what I have read, the problem with a HMD in the F-22 is mapping and syncing it to the cockpit.


The new JHMCS II uses an optointertial head tracker so the mapping problem wouldn't be an issue. Now integrating it with the Raptor's avionics, well that's another issue entirely...
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