Israel loses F-16 in raid

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milosh

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 21:11

element1loop wrote:
milosh wrote:It look like upgraded S-125 down F-16, here it is during Syrian fire exercise:
https://youtu.be/2ZFIbuzQSLg?t=66
m
Damn good upgrade for more then half century old system.


Wiki SA-5 (S-200) page entry says:

" ... On February 10, 2018, Israel launched an air strike against targets in Syria with 8 fighters. The Syrian Air Defenses shot down one Israeli F-16 fighter jet with an S-200 missile when it was attacking Syrian military base. The jet crashed in the Jezreel Valley, near Harduf.[46][47] Both the pilot and the navigator managed to eject, one has been injured lightly and the other has been injured more seriously, but both survived.[48] ..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-5_Gammon


It wasn't down while attacking base, here is video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbl-i3HIcM

and here is what is found near crash site:
https://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.5 ... 061432.jpg

Looks lot like rear of S-125 missile.

element1loop wrote:"... Brig. Gen. Tomer Bar, the Israeli Air Force’s second-in-command, said the Israeli planes faced a massive barrage of Syrian anti-aircraft fire, which reportedly included at least four different types of Russian-made air defense systems, specifically the SA-5 [S-200], SA-17, SA-6 and SA-3 [S-125]. ..."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pilot-of- ... espirator/


Attack was done by standoff missiles by russian&syrian sources, planes didn't even fly in Syrian air space, in first attack eight of eleven missiles were downed in second five of seven. And that is logical, last thing now Bibi need is captured pilots.

element1loop wrote:"... According to NATO, 477 missiles were fired, but without a single success. As comparison the fixed SA-2 and SA-3 sites demonstrated a similar low rate success, but suffered losses to around 66 to 80 percent.[34] According to one report, during the 78 day campaign, Yugoslav fired 673 SAM's - including 106 man-portable, 126 unidentified, 175 SA-3 and 266 SA-6 missiles at NATO aircraft[35] ..."


Which isn't strange if you know we didn't upgrade them at all, they were same as when bought (1960s soviet tech).
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Feb 2018, 01:47

milosh wrote:
element1loop wrote:"... According to NATO, 477 missiles were fired, but without a single success. As comparison the fixed SA-2 and SA-3 sites demonstrated a similar low rate success, but suffered losses to around 66 to 80 percent.[34] According to one report, during the 78 day campaign, Yugoslav fired 673 SAM's - including 106 man-portable, 126 unidentified, 175 SA-3 and 266 SA-6 missiles at NATO aircraft[35] ..."


Which isn't strange if you know we didn't upgrade them at all, they were same as when bought (1960s soviet tech).


Wiki SA-6 quotes:

"... 'Buk-M2EK'[70] – A wheeled variant of Buk-M2 on MZKT-6922 chassis exported to Venezuela and Syria. ... '

" .. Syria 8 complexes 9К317E Buk-M2E delivered
from Russian Federation in 2011 ..."

As far as I can tell, all of Syria's current "SA-6" systems (M2E = SA-17) used in this battle were contracted in 2010 and delivered in 2011 (or soon after), and all of them are M2E (SA-17) versions, not Soviet era kit.

The M2E version, or 'SA-17', was first displayed at MAKS in 2013.

It seems some of the SAMs fired at IDF F-16s, last week, were new updated systems that arrived just before, or soon after the Syrian civil war began. That is what I meant by "updated too" in the comment you've replied to.

If standoff, and from within Israel, against high-altitude fast F-16s, this explains pilot SA and how they knew where not to fly, and why SAMs didn't stymie their attack. The Syrians can't win or deter with that tactic, and knew it. Plus ATACM (etc) on Golan would quash this tactic quickly. So Damasus knew before this battle that they must change their tactic from here forwards.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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loke

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 09:28

According to this report:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 94,00.html

the pilots failed to take action to defend themselves when the missile locked, instead choosing to focus on the mission.

While the pilot and navigator of the Israeli jet downed by Syrian anti-aircraft fire acted correctly when ejecting from the hit plane, they did not defend themselves properly from the imminent threat, investigation into Feb 10 incident finds.

A summary of the investigation released by the IDF said that the crew had chosen "to complete the mission and not defend themselves sufficiently. Their actions did not correlate with standard procedure while under enemy fire."

The events of February 10 began in the early morning hours when an Iranian drone infiltrated Israel. An IAF Apache helicopter shot it down, while fighter jets were scrambled to attack 12 Syrian and Iranian targets in Syria in retaliation. On their way back to base, the Israeli planes came under Syrian anti-aircraft fire, with one missile exploding near one of the planes and bringing it down.

The pilot and navigator were able to bail out of the plane before it crashed near Kibbutz Harduf. The pilot was seriously injured, while the navigator was only lightly hurt. Both have since been discharged from the hospital.
[...]
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khanasad

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Unread post26 Feb 2018, 18:24

According to IDF The F-16I shot down on February 10 by a Syrian anti aircraft missile was due to an operational mistake on the part of the pilots, the IDF

“Between the tension of completing the mission while facing enemy missiles, there was an operational mistake on the part of the team whose actions did not match the order of priorities required by the threat it was facing,” a senior Israel Air Force officer said, explaining that the pilots did not take the proper evasive measures.

“The moment that there is a missile threat, they had to leave their targets in the mission and react properly to the threat.”

The jet was part of two four-plane formations that were taking part in retaliatory air strikes following the infiltration of an advanced Iranian drone into Israeli airspace earlier that morning.

Injured navigator returns to service / IDF SPOKESMAN’S UNIT

Thirteen Syrian antiaircraft missiles were fired at the jets during that operation and a total of 27 missiles were fired at Israeli planes on the retaliatory missions following the Iranian drone infiltration.

While the one jet was hit during the operation, another one had a missile locked onto it but was able to evade it.

According to a senior IAF officer, the infiltration of the drone was not meant to draw the Israeli planes into an ambush and that the warning systems in the downed aircraft functioned as required and provided timely warnings to the pilot.

The air force was not surprised that Syrian anti-aircraft missiles were fired at the planes as “it has occurred before,” the senior officer said, but the number of missiles fired towards Israeli jets that night was “a significant increase” from previous missions.

It was the first time that Israel lost an aircraft in a combat situation since 2006 and the first time in 30 years that an Israeli fighter jet was lost in a combat situation.

Injured navigator returns to service flying with IAF Chief Major General Amikam Norkin / IDF SPOKESMAN’S UNIT

In leaked transcripts of their debrief, Channel 2 News quoted the pilots as saying they had no time to report on their radio that they were bailing out of the plane.

“We were very focused on the mission. Then there was an explosion and we understood we were hit. It is a very uncomfortable feeling, the loss of control,” read the transcript.

“There is no long process and also there is no time. A few seconds. The understanding [was] that we need to quickly eject as a result of the physical damage to us and also as a result of the damage to the plane that ceased to function,” they were quoted as saying.

“We were extremely lucky. The missile exploded close to the plane and the force of the explosion could have killed us. The missile exploded at a certain distance from the plane and its shrapnel was enough to damage the plane,” the transcript said.

Both the pilot and the navigator, who were both injured during the incident, have since been released from the hospital.

Last week, the navigator, Maj. A, who was lightly wounded, returned to his squadron and flew his first returning flight with Norkin.

The pilot, who was seriously injured, is expected to return to full operational duties following his recovery.
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element1loop

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 03:24

Although the below occurred 11 months prior to the shootdown, I hadn't known they'd been using their heavy ARROW2 SAMs to protect IAF fighters from Syrian SAMs, so include it here for context.

"... In March 2017, Israel used the Arrow-2 system for the first time when it intercepted a surface-to-air missile launched from Syria the was headed toward Israeli fighter jets returning from an operation over Syria. ... "

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2018/0 ... 1519321457

But they didn't have to use ARROW2 to achieve that. A lower tier SAM could have done the job.

So they were choosing to let Assad (and his allies) know that IDF strategic SAMs could just as easily shoot down Assad's airforce, whenever they fly.

Cue Iranian LO drone, to send a counterpoint ... but it got nailed ... by a helicopter.
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gideonic

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 09:27

element1loop wrote: "... In March 2017, Israel used the Arrow-2 system for the first time when it intercepted a surface-to-air missile launched from Syria the was headed toward Israeli fighter jets returning from an operation over Syria. ... "


If i remember correctly, it was mentioned somewhere, that the missile was already on a ballistic trajectory, and the system just intercepted it as it would do with any actual SRBM. In other words it wasn't meant to protect the fighters.
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 09:45

gideonic wrote:
element1loop wrote: "... In March 2017, Israel used the Arrow-2 system for the first time when it intercepted a surface-to-air missile launched from Syria the was headed toward Israeli fighter jets returning from an operation over Syria. ... "


If i remember correctly, it was mentioned somewhere, that the missile was already on a ballistic trajectory, and the system just intercepted it as it would do with any actual SRBM. In other words it wasn't meant to protect the fighters.


True. AFAIK, it was S-200 (SA-5) which can fly like ballistic missile with shallow re-entry profile when it engages long range targets. That missile can fly at altitudes well over 100,000 ft and with speed of up to Mach 8. So Arrow-2 probably was pretty good missile for the job and very possibly had best match for range/altitude/speed profile.
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