F-15 Eagle versus F-16 Falcon

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 05:50
by f100pw229
[sorry if repost]

Who would win in AA? I know the F-16 is better for AG, [except the Mudhen], and is much better for all-around multi-role capabilities.

I'd like to get a few nuts and bolts, the F-15C has an APG-70, iirc, vs. the F-16C's APG-68. Yet the F-16 has a smaller RCS. Despite the power-weight ratios, I was under the impression the Falcon is also more manuverable than the Eagle, and the Viper would definately win in ACM. [hence the entire LWF competition of '72].

Thanks for bearing with an 18 year old newbie.

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 06:03
by Eagle21
In a BVR combat with AIM-120's down to the merge, definitely the F-15C. Stable missile platform, BIG radar, and effective long range missile.

Past the merge in a clean-wing gun-only turning dogfight (maybe out to where you would want to use an AIM-9) definitely the F-16. The F-16 was originally designed to get up fast, mix it up, shoot down a lot of MIG-21's, land, refuel and do it again.

Amazingly enough (!) if both jets are used in the regime they are designed for, then they both are superior performers in that area.

Just my opinion as an old F-15 crew chief.

JMC

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 16:48
by elp
We did a thread like this a few months back.... :wink:

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 19:26
by Eagle21
Oh, I know. But he did ask the question!

JMC

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 20:43
by greg
I didn't knew it! I was thinking that an Eagle can win the Viper in ACM because it has 2 engines, and he can increase his energy so he will don't stuck in LAG. I heard that if you are with a Viper, you will be little stupid if you are fighting with an Eagle. Also you can think that an F-16 is a cheap F-15. Really I don't know...

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 20:53
by Eagle
2 engines don't mean a thing if you have twice the weight to haul around. Also the Viper is more efficient in the high alpha regime. The F-16 is not a cheap anything let alone a cheap Beagle. ;-)

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2004, 21:21
by Grunt
Personally I don't think which is better! What matters is that any Mig who goes up against ant of the two will deffinitley get splashed! :wink:

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2004, 05:04
by Eagle
Point. Really, that's all that matters.

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2004, 16:06
by Frodo
Check this one: http://edwards.airshowjournal.com/2003/
There's a nice picture of an f-16 and f-15 flying in formation...check the size of that flying tenniscourt next to the viper, tally ho will not be a problem (but you have to survive before the merge :)

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2004, 20:39
by greg
Really I don't know... Eagle, I think that they are not stupid if they put 2 engines. Do you think that they did it to increase the weight? Maybe you are right. Does anyone know the best turn rate of an F-15?

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2004, 04:50
by Eagle21
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the big wing and two engines causes low performance. The wing on the F-15 is specifically designed to provide lift, and the large area of it gives a low wing loading. Low wing loading equals turning performance. If you have ever seen the F-15 demo doing a 360 degree turn, then you know that it can get around pretty quick. The two engines put out A LOT of power to move the jet around. I do know that, in the right hands, an F-15 can actually turn with an F-16-particularly the older ones-and defeat it in a turning fight. This almost always causes a level one over-g on the wings, but I would rather do the over-g inspection than have my pilot tell me he lost the fight! As far as high alpha manuevering, under some circumstances the F-15C can get the nose up more than the F-16 and still maintain control. Again, that big wing provides lots of lift.

As you may know, I am an F-15 crew chief, and just had to defend my favorite piggy!!

JMC

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2004, 16:48
by SwedgeII
Also at higher altitudes the F-15 IS more maneuverable, due to that big wig gripping the air. It also has VG inlets that schedule the air to the engines something the 16 CANT do. The 15 also has a wayyyy better radar!! Is faster and has a longer range. You do the math. The only reason we didn’t buy ALL F-15's was they are more expensive!!

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2004, 21:48
by TC
I hold with that post that said one is VERY STUPID to go in against either plane. Take the Eagle Drivers' remarks on the Iraqi AF during Desert Storm..."Gear up, Flaps up, BLOWN UP!" Anyone who goes in against an Eagle in ANY BVR fight, and most turning dogfights (if he lives, which isn't likely) should seek mental health counseling.

Well, same goes for the Viper. If you get into a turning fight with the Viper...as Tony Soprano would say, "Fuggeddaboutit." And while both planes would most likely never face off in a real fight...er...well, unless certain unnamed nations in a certain region of Asia decide to go at it, I think the Eagle would have an advantage from long range, which is where you really want to decide a fight to begin with.

Then again, foreign Eagles and Vipers don't quite have the same capabilities (radar, avionics) that the American versions do, so really I don't know. I hope it doesn't get to a situation where we have to find out. For one thing, it would be a very bad war, and two, it would screw up both jets' undefeated records. :P

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2004, 22:46
by lamoey
I spoke to some Viper pilots about this just after they had splashed 2 Eagles mimicking Mig capabilities in a mid 80's NATO exercise, and the basically said that both plains have advantages the other don't, so it is down to the pilot if everything else is even, i.e. head on "top Gun" stile.

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2004, 15:22
by F16guy
All right now for my two cents.

As a Viper driver, I'll say what really matters is the man in the machine. If you look back at history the better plane did not always win the fight. Example, the Mig-15 in Korea had the advantage with speed, climbing ability and turn over the F-86(unslatted) but the kill ratio was 12:1 infavor of the more highly skilled and aggressive US pilots.

In my experience fighting F-15's, they have toys that we cant talk about and I don't have in the Viper that I wish I had, but I don't know of any Eagle pilot that wanted to go to the merge and turn with a Viper. Maybe now that the helmet mounted sight and Aim 9X are out they will feel differently. The Viper has a better instantaneous G onset, turn radius and rate (over time) and a better thrust to weight ratio. And I can see him forever while the Viper is so hard to see. I'll out stack(climb) any Eagle in a fight and maintain better energy. The Eagle has better slow speed AOA and nose authority because he does not have a limiter. What it comes down to though, is who is flying the plane that makes the difference to paraphrase Baron Manfred von Richthofen

Oh and F15E's don't count in this discussion. Clubb'n baby seals.

Re: F-15 Eagle v. F-16 Falcon

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2004, 19:56
by Lieven
f100pw229 wrote:[sorry if repost]

Who would win in AA? I know the F-16 is better for AG,...


Yes, there has been an earlier discussion about the same topic. See: <a href="http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-188.html"> F-16 versus F-15</a>.

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2004, 02:14
by TC
D@mn straight. It's not the machine, it's the man. Dogfights look cool in movies, but given the choice, I'd rather end it all with an AMRAAM before he knows what got him. That way, I live, he dies (or bails out) and I get a star on the jet.

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2005, 21:39
by WILZ
F-16Guy is right on... As I have stated in the <a href="f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-188-start-45.html">other post</a>... I am a John Boyd fan I think that the F-15 is a POS. Rate em every time and if you stack Vipers right you can sneak by those Big Eyes... People who believe that the Eagle is better in A2A than the Viper has been watching much Discovery Wings... When you see an Eagle loaded with all of those missiles also... It brings a smile to my face because I know he is probably shittin in his bag... Tally ho... Guns, Guns, Guns...