Su-27 vs F-16

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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elp

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Unread post27 Jul 2004, 04:13

Pumpkin wrote:Great discussion, guys. You guys sound right. I am no expert in the subject. I personally like both the Flanker and the Viper. Revert to habu2's comment on such X vs Y thread, I guess we can never achieved a conclusive if not unbiased studies, comparing 2 platforms, as air operations are really fighting as a networked arm these days. Not forgetting the many intangible factors.

Thus far, no real case case studies (Flanker vs Viper) can conclude our debates here. I am afraid, even if there is any, it is only good enough to conclude that particular scenario. Lesson can nonetheless, be learned from combined air exercises.

I am satisfied with the findings from Cope India 2004. Understand you guys have some theories about that exercise. To name a few, we have the F-22 bid and the exercise setup. Pretty much covered in the other thread here.

For the record, I would like to make an unbiased note. I feel the Flanker, particularly IAF Su-30MKI/MK, should be deemed as one of the most respectable adversay against the Viper. I hope any well trained, humble Viper pilot can always treat the Flanker with utmost respect, to survive the fight and live to meet another Russian-made adversay.

just my 2 cent, :)


OT.... Cope India was their few SU-30K models... basically a two seater SU-27 with air refueling ability LOL ( Flanker "C" for yous that like the NATO code name ( cant stand NATO code names, not very descriptive ) . That means nothing more than the mediocre R-27 SARH ( AA-10 ) and HOBS R-73 (AA-11 ) . K is an A2A jet only. Certainly a threat jet, but nothing near what India will have soon. I'll take an AMRAAM F-16 v that.

The real threat is when India gets their MKI ( FLANKER "H" ) jets sorted out to where they are happy. You can count on a much more high threat jet ( think R77 (AA-12 ) Active Radar Homers... Better avionics ( thanks France and Israel LOL ) ( GPS/INS all kinds of cool stuff. And a real abiliy to do some A2G. That is when the fun exercises will start. India is famous for mixing east and west tech. So maybe we will see a LITENING pod on an MKI some day. :o
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SPIKE

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Unread post30 Jul 2004, 05:23

The SU 27 will slaughter the F-16 in a one on one.That is if the the pilot is a good one.The 2004 CO COPE in India,proved as a huge shock to us in air to air combat. The "F-15"s did almost poorly against the Su-27, 30, 33B. The Indian pilots are the sh*t.They took out Fighter School graduates in their sorties. So the new Sukhois are definitely the sh*t now. They are the biggest threats for us now. They also have extremely serious radars,and missiles.

Now we are not the kings of the skies anymore, the enemies are kreeping up on us.Thank God for the F-22.

Ciao
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Unread post30 Jul 2004, 12:43

SPIKE, I guess the experience gained from Cope India 2004 is for the good course. IMO, the Flanker families are respectable, not formiable, let alone invincible. I will go with elp's sentiment. The Viper will be more than capable to put up a fight.

And pardon me, I am not sure I follow your language. :shock:

SPIKE wrote:The Indian pilots are the sh*t.
Last edited by Pumpkin on 31 Jul 2004, 08:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post30 Jul 2004, 19:25

Who are these all-knowing newbies that spew this Su-27 Superiority sh*t??? Hmmm???

The Su-27 is '80s technology at best. F-16s have been continually upgraded during their service life, I don't think you can say the same for the Su-27s still in service.

A big part of being a good fighter pilot is being able to maintain proficiency, and that means flying a lot of hours and practicing ACM. You don't get that flying maybe 40 hrs a YEAR like most Su-27 operators. They don't have the money for upgrades, they don't have the money for maintenance, they don't have the money for fuel, and they don't have the money for pilot (and maintainer) salaries. Given that, where are you going to find a good Su-27 pilot AND a good Su-27????
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elp

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Unread post30 Jul 2004, 20:48

SPIKE wrote:The "F-15"s did almost poorly against the Su-27, 30, 33B.
Ciao


The only Big SU they went against were some of the very first SU-30s India received- SU-30K's ( A2a only jet ) Which is really just a two seat SU-27 with aireal refueling. NO active BVR, just Semi-Active BVR. They don't have any SU-33B's. I know games like LoMAC are fun but you really need to learn your SU-27 SU-3x varients chapter and verse before you talk about them.

The big SUs are a threat jet for sure. And the Indians are a good air force. Might want to look at these threads for a dose of reality re: Cope India,,,,

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1194.html

and

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... 5749#15749

Also the F-15s were out numbered 2 to 2.5 to 1 in a lot of scenaros. Including the Bison ( a modified MiG-21 ) That has BVR ability.

So far most of the press accounts are hype. That hasn't stopped USAF from running to congress to lead the clues there how the big bad plain jane K model SU-30 beat up on them.

Vs. a K model with the crap R-27 and nices HOBS R-73 (AA11) I would still take an F-15 with AMRAAM and AIM9x ( X wasnt at the exercise ).

So the answer is reality. It was an exercise ( with both sides not showing their best stuff ( we did not take the super F-15 AESA's from the 3FS, nor did we have AIM-9x. Just as India did not use the SU-30MKI.

And yeah an F-16 with AMRAAM is more than enough for the K model.

Once the Indians get the SU-30 MKI sorted out, then you have a REAL threat SU-30. R77 (AA12) and thrust vectoring, and better avionics. Nice thing is though, we aren't going to be fighting India. Just as Germany when they had the MiG-29 represented a worst case WVR scenerio with the MiG-29 ( MiG-29 with skilled pilots ) . So too does the SU-30K show that it can be a threat to deal with just on performance. India provided us big SU game experience so we can have an idea on how to deal with other Big SU users. Remember: HOBS heaters will be common for use soon. In the near future, You go WVR v an F-15, F-16 with HOBS AIM-9x, thrust vectoring and nice manuver ability, wont matter much. Both sides with HOBS heaters in WVR is like a bar fight where everyone has a shot gun, not very fun. Keep it real.
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Unread post30 Jul 2004, 23:49

To all who I've offended I am deeply sorry. I was just a little to hot. The SU's are great jets, and so are the F-16s.

There are kick-ass Sukhoi pilots out there. For example Indian pilots average about 300 hours per year, compared to 275 hours for our pilots. And the Sukhois do get updated also. So to settle all the animosity: F-16 is still THE jet and its an awesome one.

And Habu2, I've got much love for you.

Oh, and I know my sh*t on the Sukhois. And yes, I'm a newbie, you are correct.

God bless.
Ciao comrades!
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Unread post31 Jul 2004, 16:58

IMO it all comes down to "on any given day"... there are so many variables - pilot skill, weapons loadout, fuel state, initial aspect/positioning - that these F-16 vs XYZ threads are just so many electrons wasted. There is no definitive answer. For example the F-117 was supposed to be "invisible" but one got shot down anyway. Not the day before, nor the day after, but on that given day.... wham.

Taking all those variables out what I see is the Su has a big powerful radar but the Viper is a small target to acquire. The Viper has smaller radar but the Su is a huge target to paint. Those kind of factors tend to even out the comparison and it all ends up depending on those other variables I mentioned.
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Unread post31 Jul 2004, 17:20

No biggy SPIKE... and yes the SU is a cool jet. No way around that.

All this crap is so x-y-z fact and figure tech-no-geek that NONE of us can know everything on every single system. Add to that, I am WEAK on big SU ability compared to some of the fanatics out there.

O.T.

The Indian AF is going to do nothing but improve at the rate they are going, so it is a natural fit that the USAF and InAF hang out together and do exercises. There were some InAF guys here looking at the F-15 depot ops some months back. As you might know, InAF doesn't send all there Ru tech gear back to Russia to have it worked on. A lot of stuff like MiG-21 , 23, and 27 and 29 refirb ( what we would call PDM ( periodic depot maintenance ) work is done in country by their own aerospace industry. So yeah you could consider them the most likely AF to take the SU-3x series to the highest level of advancement.

Also think of all the BVR tech they had available in that exercise ( assuming BVR was scored ??? )

French Mirage 2000: 530 Super missile
MiG-21 Bison: R77 ( AA12 ) ( Gee... wonder why USAF pukes said it was the Bison they were most suprised by LOL... a freakin fire and forget active RH fire and forget missile on it ! )
MiG-29 and SU-30K - improved R27 ( AA-10 )

So thats 4 airframes with 3 different types of BVR missiles ( one Active RH ) which offers a depth of ability to weed through. Pretty good really. All that outnumbering the F-15.
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Unread post09 Sep 2004, 16:00

Well, there's pilot training as some have said previously, it makes a big difference when you have lots of seat time. Technically they're 2 very different aircraft, with differences in range, specific excess power, instantaneous and sustained turning performance. Close in i'd not want to be in a non JHMDS US fighter especially without the AIM-9X against any Flanker, if he can look at you he can kill you. IMO the F-16 has suffered for some time with the additional weight of systems developed since its inception, which impacts wing loading, thrust to weight ratios and range. The demise of the big wing F-16 concept puts a lot of strain on that little wing it has if its carrying more than just a token AA load, add a belly tank, EW pod, and other associated equipment to allow it to perform in a high threat environment and the turn rate and accel figures start to suffer. BVR it would be in some trouble even if the scan profile of the Russian radar isn't as good, it reaches out quite effectively, missile effectiveness is more of a nod to the Falcon though, the current AMRAAMs if you can get a shot off first have a lot of equalizing potential. You fight to your strengths and try to avoid getting into a situation where you're allowing the threat aircraft to enjoy its advantage.
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Unread post09 Sep 2004, 19:05

An R-27 has a Slightly longer reach than the AIM-120, but it's only Semi Active. If the Su-27 pilot has his wits about him, he will get the first shot. Problem is, not only is the R-27 a BAD missile, the AMRAAM will go active anyway before the R-27 hits: That means, F-16 pilot can Turn Around, R-27 falls out of the Sky. Now, if the Su-27 fires a 2nd R-27(ER Version, one of the better versions), things get complicated, and the F-16 may have to do a Missile evasion: Actually, they both in all likely hood would, then there's wingmen to consider, eventually, it would probably end up in WVR Combat if it was a 4v2 F-16s, like with the Eagles at Cope India- The Su-27 is Pretty agile, but the F-16 is just as if not more agile- The Su-27 does have the R-73, which is a very good missile, but AIM-9X, is almost certainly better- question is what do the Russians have, if anything, that we don't know about? Sure, they're in the dump economy wise, but still... There are just too many factors to consider, but I still think the F-16 is the better aircraft.
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Unread post10 Sep 2004, 19:31

Heated thread! :D

I don't really think a pure head to head comparison of the Viper vs XYZ is fair....yes a lot of the russian stuff can out manuver the Viper. However thats not really the point, in a real word situation which platform has the overall advantage.

The Viper is the complete package, manoverabillity, good radar, good vis, top quality BVR missiles. When you compare that to a russian offering, what do you have going for it?... good maneuverabillity. That is only helpful if you manage to merge before getting splashed by the wall of Slammers coming at you!

Its about overall combat effectiveness not who can turn fastest in a synthetic knife fight.
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Unread post10 Sep 2004, 20:05

of course the thread name is SU-27 vs F-16. That means you could mention everything:

-Cost of ownership for 10, 15, 20 years.

-Superior air to ground ability of the F-16 etc.
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Unread post24 Nov 2004, 00:16

SwedgeII wrote:Well, I think the Su-27 is better then the F-15 and I think the F-15 is better then the F-16 sooooo

So if rock beats scissors and scissors beats paper, then rock must certainly beat paper, right? :)

SwedgeII wrote:I was wondering about that on the F-22, it must rely heavily on AWACS for vectoring, cause as soon as it fires up its radar, its shouting hear I am stealthy or not!!!

Yeah, but if the F-22's target doesn't run away really fast, it's going to get an AMRAAM down the gullet. The main difference between the F-22 and other fighters is that it's extremely difficult to target. It's also not an F-117 or B-2--its goal is to destroy enemy aircraft, not necessarily to remain totally undetected. While the latter could certainly be helpful in achieving the former, either way enemy aircraft are still Raptor-meat. :twisted:

MiG21bisHZS wrote:There is no Su-37 anymore.The only Su-37 crashed and Russia has not built one since.The Russians are gonna go ahead with the S-37( Su-34 ) Golden Eagle project.

Would the Su-47 (not Su-34, which is something else) really offer improved capability over advanced Flankers?

MiG21bisHZS wrote:USA and India held A2A exercises and the Su-30MKI prooved very leethal to any USA Aircraft.

Well, the fact that the F-15s were heavily outnumbered and were restricted in BVR capability (e.g. short AMRAAM range) may have had some influence on the results....

MiG21bisHZS wrote:The F-16 cannot match the Su-27/30/33/35 T2W Ratio

This depends on the respective fuel states of the aircraft, but if you're talking generally about take-off thrust-to-weight ratios, then it depends on whether you actually add up all the numbers for the Flankers. For some reason, "normal" takeoff weights that are commonly listed for Flankers are substantially lower than empty weight + internal fuel (never mind weapons), which artificially inflates their raw performance specifications on paper.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:The Flankers can do souch manouvers like the Cobra ( Puts you 6 o'clock on the plane chasing you)

Note that this tactic only works when Tom Cruise does it, just like in Top Gun. :P

MiG21bisHZS wrote:Now the Su-30 vs the F-16 Block 50 in A2G mode is a bit of a pickle to explain....

Su-30K - A ground attack version of Su-27UB(compatible to F-16C/D)

Nope, the Su-30K is the export (that's what the "K" indicates) variant of the Su-30, and has upgraded avionics. You're apparently thinking of the Su-30M, which is the multirole variant of the Su-30.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:Su-30MK - Used by Russia and India.. I dont know much about this variant

This is the export variant of the multirole Su-30M. I'm not exactly sure how it differs from the Su-30M (perhaps it doesn't), although Sukhoi is beginning to use this name generically for all of the Su-30MK sub-variants. To the best of my knowledge, some of India's Su-30s are "Su-30MKs" that will be upgraded to Su-30MKIs.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:Su-30MKK - Used by Russia and China, this aircraft has all kinds of capabilities as the F-16(any type)

This is the China-specific (the second "K" is for China) variant of the Su-30MK. It apparently has the larger, fuel-bearing vertical tail of the Su-35.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:Su-30MK2 - Used By China .... it has good ground attack capabilities but not a lot of info on it.

These are minor variants of the Su-30MKK. They apparently have some small but necessary modifications in order to use certain laser-guided weapons and to attack ships. They are also being marketed to other countries, unlike the Su-30MKI, which is very specific to India and cannot be exported, due to foreign content.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:Su-30MKI - The best aircraft in service today

This is the India-specific variant of the Su-30MK. It has canards, the Su-37's limited thrust-vectoring system (AL-31FU), and extended rudders on Su-27-style vertical stabilizers (as opposed to the Su-30MKK's larger one). Its avionics are largely of western (mostly French) and indigenous designs and/or upgrades.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:( has radar so powerful it is refered to as the Mini-AWACS in the RuAF )

I thought that in Russia the "mini-AWACS" was the MiG-31, the interceptor of choice for air defense. Its capabilities seem to fit this role better. Sukhoi did try unsuccessfully to sell the original Su-30 to the Russian Air Force as a "mini-AWACS," though.
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Unread post24 Nov 2004, 00:47

All these planes are close or similar in performance, and on any given day the variables will more than likely determine the outcome.

If I was an area commander in a war, I would rather have a squadron of F-4 E's with the hottest pilots on Earth that a bunch of factory fresh nuggets flying MiG-29's or SU-(insert number here) that only fly an hour or two a month. As long as these beasts need men then men will be the criteria that deteermine the outcomes.

But that's just my opinion.
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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 21:52

elp wrote:And it was the SU-27 that dominated the MiG-29 in Ethiopea v Eritrea, in close in work, an area the Mig-29 is supposed to be really good at ;) .


Was revisiting an article to the above mentioned. It is an amazing case study how the Ethiopian Su-27s have gained the total tupper hand in ALL the WVR combats (including a 4 vs 2 disadvantage) and shot down 3(?) Eritrean Mig-29 in separate encounters. Can't help but wonder will the Viper finds the same surprises, if they ever met in WVR :?
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