F-16 versus F-5

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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Kaasjager.

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Unread post08 Aug 2006, 20:46

Hey, im wondering how much F-5E's it would take to take down a early F-16 (like the Block 5). And how much would it take to down a modern F-16 like a block 52+? I know this isn't a fair match but im just wondering how much F-5's it would take.
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EBJet

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Unread post08 Aug 2006, 21:50

Just one.. 8)
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MelvinC

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Unread post31 Aug 2006, 07:53

In Singapore, we have both the F-5 (Upgraded to carry AMRAAMs) and F-16C/D Block 52+.

I would say the F-5 has no chance whatsoever to down any F-16 head on. The F-16 will have ample time to fire away all AMRAAMs to down every single F-5 before they can even reach sidewinder range to fire.

If its only ONE F-16, then it will probably take at least 6 to 8 F-5. A minimum of 6 F-5s will be shot down by missiles and maybe 1 or 2 with guns, before the F-16 runs outta fuel and ammo and eject or land.

If its 4 F-16s, then that will be 24 to 30 F-5s to down the 4 F-16s.

Then again, if the F-16s are supported by SAMs, then the F-5s will have no chance.
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Unread post31 Aug 2006, 20:45

That 100% Pk sure comes in handy doesn't it? Hypothetically speaking of course..
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Grounded1971

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Unread post31 Aug 2006, 20:54

During the Iran-Iraq War an Iranian F-5 even took down a Foxbat, which given the sprint rate of the latter and the fact that the F-5 is a subsonic crock, it just goes to show that pilot skill can still count for a lot.

Obviously we'd expect the Viper to have AWACS in whatever field of battle in which it finds itself but if it did come to a theoretical situation (say a series of mountain vallies over Afghanistan/Iran) that resulted in a knifefight I still wouldn't give the F-5 even a remote chance against the F-16. It's just too limited.
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HunterKiller

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Unread post01 Sep 2006, 10:14

Hehh, this Foxbat kill is not any argument, it can easily be killed if flown out of normal flight envelope. Foxbat's pilot cant see a thing and cannot maneuver hard.

OK, tis manu vs manu theory is not valid in real life. Air combats 1 vs 1 rarely happen.

I group combat, factor "unseen shooter" will apply and this combat will end in favor of F-16, but they just cannot smoke F-5.

BTW, in Red Flag F-15 drivers had hard time catching the F-5 - so it is not so limited...
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Unread post02 Sep 2006, 21:09

That Iraqi Foxbat was already damaged by a Hawk SAM, so it was flying at medium level and subsonic. The F-5 took it out with the guns...
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Grounded1971

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Unread post03 Sep 2006, 22:03

HunterKiller wrote:Hehh, this Foxbat kill is not any argument, it can easily be killed if flown out of normal flight envelope. Foxbat's pilot cant see a thing and cannot maneuver hard.

OK, tis manu vs manu theory is not valid in real life. Air combats 1 vs 1 rarely happen.

I group combat, factor "unseen shooter" will apply and this combat will end in favor of F-16, but they just cannot smoke F-5.

BTW, in Red Flag F-15 drivers had hard time catching the F-5 - so it is not so limited...


Ok so it's hard to envisage a realistic scenario in which the F-5 can engage. The avionics are so primitive it would be entirely dependent upon CGI to vector them to intecept and it's very difficult to create the 'unseen shooter' scenario. Think of Desert Storm: 4 Iraqi MiG-21s successfully drew away the Tomcat top cover on a strike package and when 2 other MiG-21s then attempted to take out the main strike package from the Saratoga they were shot town by 2 Hornets. It's very difficult to imagine F-5s doing a modern version of Crazy Horse and Red Cloud's 1866 massacre at Fetterman when they drew the cavalry from Fort Phil Kearney.

On the idea of the F-5 presenting a difficult target for the F-15 to acquire, well that would be true given its size and agility but it should also be remembered in the 1930s there were those who said that the biplane's smaller size and superior agility it would still present a useful component of any frontline fighter squadron.

I'd even prefer to take my chances in a Phantom or Tomcat than a Tiger if I were facing a Viper in the likely situations that would present themselves from the nations that we know to retain the F-5, other than perhaps the Turkish upgrades of the Tiger II. Even then, given the limited technology at the disposal of those airforces likely to be flying against the F-16 it just doesn't look good for any potential opponent reliant upon F-5s as part of their air defence. That's not to say that any hubris should attach to the Viper but the limitations of the F-5, from its avionics to its armanent, must all be acknowledged before contemplating any idea of a real-world scenario in which it would act out the role as a point defence fighter. (The propaganda value to the general public of having an aircraft like the F-5 fly over the school, hosiptal, bridge, powerplant and so forth just doesn't last when the shooting starts).
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Unread post07 Sep 2006, 07:42

It depends on what F-5 model we are talking about. There are upgrades available, but most of its owners are bankrupt or embargoed countries that can not do that.

Singapore Air Force has more than 40 upgraded F-5S, who have real BVR capability, modern radar and can carry AIM-120.

Various F-5 versions remain in service with many nations. The most advanced are those of Singapore, which has approximately 49 modernised and re-designated F-5S (single-seaters) and F-5T (two-seaters) aircraft. Upgrades include new radar, manufactured by Israel, updated cockpits with multi-function displays, and compatibility with the Rafael Python and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles. Similar programs have been carried out in Chile (with Israeli assistance) and Brazil, the former being called the F-5E Tiger III, armed with Python III and 4 (with Dash helmet-mounted cue system) and new radar, cockpit displays, and electronics, and the latter being called the F-5 Plus, with Griffon radars and other improvements. It is believed that the Chilean Air Force F-5E also carry the Israeli Derby medium range missile, proving the aircraft with BVR capability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-5_Freedom_Fighter

Ugraded F-5 versions can be defeated only by AWACS use, because many users have difficult terrain and huge territory that will negate F-16 radar advantage.

With HMS, F-5 can smoke any F-16 if driver properly. We are not talking about some Russian Bravo-Sierra upgrades in Iran, but Israeli upgrades that often are second to none.
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Unread post21 Apr 2018, 15:51

An F - 16 C if get the merge with F -5 , guns only will winn ,in about half radius of one turn ( 180degrees ) F5 get stuck in this hard banked turn and the F 16C with better T/W ratio will go up and then come down to splash F-5.
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vilters

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Unread post21 Apr 2018, 23:40

A well flown F-5 is no easy meat at all.

In a 4v4, the outcome is not so predictable as one might think. My prediction? Only one F-16 will survive.

There are reasons why F-5's are so popular with agressor pilots.
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Unread post22 Apr 2018, 03:14

vilters wrote:A well flown F-5 is no easy meat at all.

In a 4v4, the outcome is not so predictable as one might think. My prediction? Only one F-16 will survive.

There are reasons why F-5's are so popular with agressor pilots.


Agreed, and we all saw it splash a Tomcat in 1986.
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Unread post04 Jun 2018, 16:15

Long ago, I had a Viper pilot tell me this..

"A GE powered Viper with a good pilot is going to be difficult for anyone to beat. Real difficult..."

So assuming that, the F-5 (even upgraded versions) probably wouldn't last long. Now if we use the example of the ultimate F-5 (the F-20 Tigershark), things might be a little different.

The F-16's Trump card was always its WVR maneuverability. But today with the advent of high off boresight heat seeking missiles, it doesn't count for as much as it used to. Rather, the strength of the F-16 lies in its multi mission airframe, seemingly adept at either air to air or air to ground roles. Assuming USAF F-15's rule the skies (and they always have), the F-16 really shines doing its thing... and I think we have around 1,000 of them?

Even if the F-15 was having difficulty, its reassuring to have that many F-16's waiting in the wings if need be. In much the same way as thousands of F-35's will be. F-22/15C's not getting it done? Thousands of F-35's can pitch in, picking up right where the F-16 left off.

I'll be sad to see her go, but I will always remember what that pilot said. He was adamant that a GE powered Viper with a good pilot was a match for anyone, and it's hard to argue with him. The F-5 is simply out-classed on all levels, save perhaps for visual identification...
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Unread post04 Jun 2018, 17:57

The ultimate F-5 might well be this now:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=54135

The so-called ‘Super Tigris’ upgrade adds the Litening III targeting pod, Rafael Python V and Derby missiles, capability with the Sky Shield jamming pod, Link-16, Have Quick II radios, a Digital Video and Data Recorder, new mission computer, upgraded environmental control system, new head-up display, colour multi-function displays, new countermeasure systems, and the Elta Sytems ELM-2032 radar. In addition the service life is pushed out to 9,600 flight hours.


They still get to keep the 3lbs of thrust though :P
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post05 Jun 2018, 18:42

The F-5 is good only for certain mission sets as an aggressor. The Viper will largely outclass it in just about every parameter, even when combat loaded.

basher54321 wrote:The ultimate F-5 might well be this now:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=54135

The so-called ‘Super Tigris’ upgrade adds the Litening III targeting pod, Rafael Python V and Derby missiles, capability with the Sky Shield jamming pod, Link-16, Have Quick II radios, a Digital Video and Data Recorder, new mission computer, upgraded environmental control system, new head-up display, colour multi-function displays, new countermeasure systems, and the Elta Sytems ELM-2032 radar. In addition the service life is pushed out to 9,600 flight hours.


They still get to keep the 3lbs of thrust though :P


Certainly looks like the ultimate Tiger...without the oompf!
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