F-16A vs F-15A in BFM performance.

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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by firebase99 » 24 May 2019, 22:40

Meteor wrote:I flew the F-16A from 1983-1988, after which I transitioned to the F-16C. During my "A" time I flew a lot against the F-15A in Europe and in the Pacific, and later on at Nellis and Luke.

The conversation in a lot of these threads revolves around detailed discussions of theoretical aircraft performance derived from the perusal of various EM diagrams. News break: In the real world, (even in training), that almost never happens. The single greatest variable in air-to-air combat is the pilot, not the aircraft. I've watched a highly experienced (4000 hour) Vietnam vet flying an F-4E wear down a lesser pilot in an F-16A, and eventually guns kill him. I was a highly experienced FWS grad, SEFE, RTU IP, FCF pilot, etc., but at one time or another, I think I was shot by just about every fighter in the NATO inventory, and I returned the favor. Rarely, if ever, was I perfectly matched against another identically prepared adversary and aircraft.

When training in an operational unit, we rarely did DBFM. On those occasions where we could successfully arrange dissimilar training with another unit, both sides wanted to "train like you'll fight." We didn't plan to meet a MiG-23 or Su-27 or Mirage F-1 in a 1v1 engagement, in perfect weather, outside of any SAM ring, in clean configuration, within a short flying distance of both of our runways. We did think that we'd be an egressing 4-ship at 300' AGL and 540 knots, low on fuel, with empty TERs, empty 370s, and an ALQ-131 on the centerline. We did think that all of a sudden we'd cross a ridgeline and find ourselves blundering into a cloud of MiGs. So we're in an air-to-ground configuration with maybe an AIM-9P or AIM-9L onboard, low on gas, in the weeds, with people on the ground shooting at us too. Now THAT is a real air-to-air scenario, and THAT is what we trained for.

I've flown DACT in everything from 2v2 exercises to 16 v X at Red Flag, Team Spirit, etc. My plan was always to remain as fast as possible, yes, even above corner speed. If I turned more than 90 degrees, my personal alarm bells started going off, and if I turned more than 180 degrees and hadn't gotten a kill, I started looking for a way to bug out. Flying 2v4 against the Aggressor F-5Es, I'd take my element to the merge at 600 KIAS or 1.15 mach, (hence my callsign), while the F-5s would be at 450 KIAS and .85. We'd kill two at the merge, never turn more than 90 degrees, and separate. I don't recall an occasion where either of us ever got shot, and we almost always got at least one F-5, if not two. That is real training.

I spent three years as a squadron weapons officer at the Luke RTU. There we actually DID do DBFM for student training. They flew against the AT-38 (and got shot), the A-7 (and got shot), the F-4D (and got shot), the F-14 (and got shot), the F-18 (and got shot), the A-4 (and got shot), the Kfir (and got shot)….well, you get the idea. It was all about the pilot, not the aircraft.

So here is where I finally get to the F-15A v F-16A question. As an RTU IP, I occasionally DID get to fly the hypothetical 1v1 air-to-air scenario I mentioned above. I flew against an F-15A squadron weapons officer that had gone through FWIC at the same time I had, we had both flown F-4s previously, we were both in clean jets, the weather was Arizona perfect, and we were both the same distance from the warm dry runway. We would do "butterfly" neutral setups, and both be limited to AIM-9P and guns, so it was truly an energy maneuvering fight. As long as I didn't screw it up and get too slow, the F-16A would usually beat the F-15A in probably 75%-80% of the engagements. However, as stated above, while that might be good for beers at the bar, it really had nothing to do with real world air-to-air.

In real world DACT (not DBFM), I was very glad that the F-15s were on our side. I've flown 4v2 out over the water against the F-15s from the 33rd at Eglin, and they kicked our butts. The four of us were all experienced IPs with 1000-2000 hours in the jet, but we rarely even got to visually acquire the TTBPs, much less survive to the merge. We'd usually fly the first two engagements "full up", with our 4xAIM-9L vs their 4xAIM-9L plus their 4xAIM-7M. It wasn't pretty. Then, so that we wouldn't sulk and would come back and play with them the next day, they'd restrict themselves to 4xAIM-9P on the last engagement. (That was a lot more fun for us...)

I also flew "red air" for an F-15A ORI. On the first day, they launched real ZULU alert birds out to intercept us 200 miles out over the ocean. It was pretty impressive to watch them come thundering out at 1.4 mach at 45K, then pull up alongside us with 8 live missiles hanging underneath. I felt like a high school receiver being run down by an NFL linebacker. I'm glad they were on our side.

Conclusion of this overly long message (too much vino tonight); the F-16A was generally a better WVR dogfighter than an F-15A. Flown by equally capable pilots, the F-16A would probably win. That being said, in a REAL world, night, IMC, jamming, many v many scenario, the F-16A would likely not make it to the merge against an F-15A.


What a great read, thank you.


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by Fox1 » 01 Sep 2019, 09:13

It was a great read indeed! Too often we get caught up in the 1v1 visual range engagement when trying to compare one aircraft against another. But in truth, aircraft never fight other aircraft. It is the men (and women) flying them, the ground crews maintaining them, their training, doctrine, support assets, the quality of their weapons systems, logistics and so forth that really matter. While today there are potential adversaries out there equipped with fighters that could seriously challenge our own in 1v1 scenarios, I feel confident that there isn't another air force on the planet that can match the U.S in terms of what we can bring to the fight overall. The individual aircraft are just that. It is the entire system working in unison that determines success. Nobody else does as many things so well as we do. As long as that remains true, I think we'll be just fine.


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by boilermaker » 02 Sep 2019, 09:53

Lest we forget, the biggest killer in Vietnam wasSam's. Which of the two would do best against Sam's. As ananecdote, an Iraqi Mig managed to hit a F15 whose missiles were not functioning and got caught. The aircraft survived the engagement with one engine. The F15 is much more robust than the F16. I think I would rather fight in it.


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by basher54321 » 02 Sep 2019, 12:45

Nearly - pretty certain that AAA and Small Arms were the biggest fixed wing killers - will post a chart later.

Edit - Actually too big: See from p77 here https://www.aef.se/Avionik/Artiklar/Mot ... rative.pdf


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by zero-one » 04 Sep 2019, 13:46

My main take away from Meteor's post is that its the man in the box that matters.
My question is, will superior training and tactics make up for lackluster equipment.

There is an argument along the lines of, highly trained pilots in 4th gens will trump average pilots on 5th gens. And because 5th gens are so expensive to procure and operate and because their availability rates are lower than 4th gens. 5th gen pilots may have less training hours than 4th gen pilots.

Personally I have dismissed such arguments by saying that F-22 pilots have demonstrably wiped out a plethora of 4th gens with little difficulty.

But upon reading the post by Meteor, I'm thinking they may have a point. So far the F-22/35 have been spectacular but only in simulated air combat.

Can Russia and China close the technological gap with more training and better tactics. Is the extreme high cost of a 5th gen fighter program justifiable if another country can simply spend more time in training and developing tactics to close the gap substantially.


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by basher54321 » 04 Sep 2019, 20:21

Take as given that the name of the game is to find ways to overcome or get around an adversaries perceived advantages.

With their own VLO type fighters China is could be part of an exclusive club that gets to try 5 Gen Air warfare and create new and appropriate tactics for that.


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by jessmo112 » 16 Nov 2022, 17:11

So someone put out a decent article that talks about the F-16 versus the F-22, versus the F-15.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/usaf-f- ... ngagement/

Now I know this has been posted in another place but somthing in the article deserves special attention.

"In a big and confusing world, we need all kinds of airplanes, but don’t be fooled by the impressive payload, loiter time, air to ground lethality, and superficial resemblance to a slightly more capable (but still sub-par) BFM airplane like the F-15C."

So years ago the F-16 and F-15C were considered fairly equal in BFM.

If you look at the 1st page you get the impression that
The F-16A, and F-15A with equal pilots would be a good match with the F-16 coming out on top.
I have never heard anyone call a F-15 SUB-PAR in BFM ever. Did the F-15C get worse with time?
Are the envelope restricted?


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by mor10 » 16 Nov 2022, 22:16

jessmo112 wrote:So someone put out a decent article that talks about the F-16 versus the F-22, versus the F-15.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/usaf-f- ... ngagement/

Now I know this has been posted in another place but somthing in the article deserves special attention.

"In a big and confusing world, we need all kinds of airplanes, but don’t be fooled by the impressive payload, loiter time, air to ground lethality, and superficial resemblance to a slightly more capable (but still sub-par) BFM airplane like the F-15C."

So years ago the F-16 and F-15C were considered fairly equal in BFM.

If you look at the 1st page you get the impression that
The F-16A, and F-15A with equal pilots would be a good match with the F-16 coming out on top.
I have never heard anyone call a F-15 SUB-PAR in BFM ever. Did the F-15C get worse with time?
Are the envelope restricted?


Without being an expert, I see on the internet that a clean F-15C is limited to 7.3G. That would put it at a disadvantage against a 9G limited F-16.
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by sprstdlyscottsmn » 17 Nov 2022, 00:34

mor10 wrote:Without being an expert, I see on the internet that a clean F-15C is limited to 7.3G. That would put it at a disadvantage against a 9G limited F-16.

That is very misleading. The 7.3G limit is only for a critical condition and the rest of the envelope expands out to 9G. If the OWS is disabled then pilots are instructed to keep at 7.3G to be safe. Also, it is a verbal limit. There is nothing in the plane stopping the pilot from pulling what they need/want.
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by 35_aoa » 17 Nov 2022, 11:38

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember the eagles I fought were only reduced G limited when the drops were full. After they burned that off (or maybe it was a total GW thing?) they were 9G capable.

Nice write up Meteor. Everything you say is still true. I remember being a brand new and lucky Hornet pilot (long before I was a TO/Weapons O), fighting a light gray. I hit the merge (my jet was slick if I recall correctly, or maybe just CL only with no pylons) at Mach 1.1, as my assumption was that if I went up, he would lose sight before I lost sight of his flying barn door, and I could go up for a long time at that speed. Instead, he just went 9G level and immediately went blind. LTJG me swooped down from the heavens and unloaded F2's on him. Second set, I set 1C flow from the first merge and bled waaaay down. He decided to try and match me, which didn't work well for the Eagle. Second kill. Everything I did that day was a massive BFM error in hindsight, regardless of what you are flying, but on that day, the other guy didn't make me pay for it. He wasn't a bad pilot, just fought the Eagle v Eagle gameplan without modification. That plan wasn't a good one it turned out. I dazzled him with stupid Hornet tricks at least once, and sometimes that is all it takes :)

Back to the original subject, no way would anyone get me to put real money on either participant of that fight. Too much of a situationally dependent fight......too much of a toss up


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by charlielima223 » 19 Nov 2022, 13:37

mor10 wrote:
Without being an expert, I see on the internet that a clean F-15C is limited to 7.3G. That would put it at a disadvantage against a 9G limited F-16.


Not a completely true statement. Unlike the F-16 and newer aircraft, the F-15C doesnt have FBW controls that limits the pilot's input. I think it was over at the F-15 episode of The Fighterpilot Podcast where they stated that pilots in the past have over-G'ed the aircraft. I talked to an Eagle driver at a Nellis airshow and I asked the most he ever pulled and he said close to 10.5... I cant remember the reason why.


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by viperzerof-2 » 19 Nov 2022, 13:40

charlielima223 wrote:
mor10 wrote:
Without being an expert, I see on the internet that a clean F-15C is limited to 7.3G. That would put it at a disadvantage against a 9G limited F-16.


Not a completely true statement. Unlike the F-16 and newer aircraft, the F-15C doesnt have FBW controls that limits the pilot's input. I think it was over at the F-15 episode of The Fighterpilot Podcast where they stated that pilots in the past have over-G'ed the aircraft. I talked to an Eagle driver at a Nellis airshow and I asked the most he ever pulled and he said close to 10.5... I cant remember the reason why.

We had an Eagle driver on this board claim if he ever had to deal with a Flanker he planned to over g the aircraft. I’ll see if I can find the post.


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by charlielima223 » 19 Nov 2022, 13:42

35_aoa wrote:I might be wrong, but I seem to remember the eagles I fought were only reduced G limited when the drops were full. After they burned that off (or maybe it was a total GW thing?) they were 9G capable.

Nice write up Meteor. Everything you say is still true. I remember being a brand new and lucky Hornet pilot (long before I was a TO/Weapons O), fighting a light gray. I hit the merge (my jet was slick if I recall correctly, or maybe just CL only with no pylons) at Mach 1.1, as my assumption was that if I went up, he would lose sight before I lost sight of his flying barn door, and I could go up for a long time at that speed. Instead, he just went 9G level and immediately went blind. LTJG me swooped down from the heavens and unloaded F2's on him. Second set, I set 1C flow from the first merge and bled waaaay down. He decided to try and match me, which didn't work well for the Eagle. Second kill. Everything I did that day was a massive BFM error in hindsight, regardless of what you are flying, but on that day, the other guy didn't make me pay for it. He wasn't a bad pilot, just fought the Eagle v Eagle gameplan without modification. That plan wasn't a good one it turned out. I dazzled him with stupid Hornet tricks at least once, and sometimes that is all it takes :)

Back to the original subject, no way would anyone get me to put real money on either participant of that fight. Too much of a situationally dependent fight......too much of a toss up


that was a great read!
:thumb: :thanks:
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by viperzerof-2 » 19 Nov 2022, 14:00

Credit to F-16ADF for this, I’m not actually sure where he got it though

Tailgate,

This article is from a former F-15C pilot. When you flew the Eagle, was that generally how you fought the F-16 (GE Vipers). Was getting slow against a light Block 10 small tail or Block 15 more dangerous because they had a lighter nose (as some F-16 pilots attest to)?



Here is the article:


"In my experience, the best fighter pilot usually wins between an F-15C, F-18, F-16, MiG-29, etc. when that pilot is decidedly better.

(Assume all the jets I talk about are configured air-to-air and are basically ‘clean’ (i.e. no external fuel tanks but with air-to-air missiles loaded).

The F-16 does best in an energy fight, a fight that stays faster with pilots pulling high-g when their speeds are higher but backing off to more of an optimum turn as the fight gets slower . . . as opposed to a fight where everyone pulls as many G’s as they can to try to point & shoot the other guy sooner which causes the fight to get slow much more quickly.

Where the F-16 has the advantage is in straight and level acceleration. Imagine an F-15 and F-16 meet neutral and both pull max G to turn and try to point at each other for the first shot before getting to min range on missiles. Both end up slow after that first turn and neither get a shot because both turned so violently and stayed so close to each other that they are both inside the min range of their missiles.

Now imagine that both jets level out and accelerate straight ahead for a while. If starting from 200 KCAS, the F-16 will get to 400 KCAS about the time the F-15 gets to 300–330 KCAS. So when they start turning again, the F-16 starts the turn at 9 G’s while the F-15 cannot pull anything near 9 G’s. Turn advantage F-16. A big turn advantage.

Every time either fighter reduces G to accelerate, the F-16 takes advantage and turns faster as a result of getting more speed back quicker than the Eagle. Plus, the faster you are, the more thrust you have because more air (i.e. more oxygen) is entering the intake which means more fuel can be added so more thrust is produced. So the same jet at 200 and 400 knots produces a lot more thrust at 400 knots with the throttles in full afterburner.

So how does the F-15 beat an F-16?

He turns the fight into a slow speed and vertical up/down fight as soon as he can. A Viper doesn’t fly nearly as well as an Eagle in a nose high, slow speed fight. The Eagle has the advantage. Plus Eagle pilots do a lot more 1v1 BFM so have seen a lot more of the ‘pictures’ of a vertical fight so fly with more precision in a vertical fight than the Viper pilot.

The pictures for a flat, horizontal fight are the same throughout the 360 degrees of a full turn. The fight looks the same whether your heading is north, south, east, or west. The vertical fight has 4 different zones where you want different pictures and flight parameters because what you want to see going straight up is very different from what you want to see going straight down which is also very different in level flight with high speed at the bottom of the vertical which is just as different when level (though upside down) at the top of the vertical at slow speeds. The basic advice is to lag your opponent at the bottom of the vertical circle (to get more speed when needed) and pull lead at the top to take advantage of the best way to turn at different speeds and G’s.

Many Viper units used to have a min restriction speed of 150 KCAS for safety which made it even easier. A Viper at 150 is going to move forward of an F-15 who is at 110 and/or allow the Eagle to out climb the Viper at the same time when in a slow speed scissors fight. (Called ‘scissors’ because you go back and forth across each others flight paths.)

Bottom Line? Flat, fast, energy fights almost always go to the Viper while slow speed, vertical fights go to the Eagle. As an Eagle pilot, I must force a fight with a Viper into a slow speed vertical fight if I want my best chance to win. But I need to do so at the very beginning of the fight. The longer I wait, the better for the Viper driver.

F-15 vs. F-18?

An F-18 is kind of like an F-15E junior with very similar weapons/avionics systems to an F-15 and very similar capabilities. (Made by the same company. Makes sense.) But in an air-to-air mode, the F-18 has leading edge slats and maneuvering flaps. (Added to allow them to take off and land much slower on a carrier.) During BFM, it allows them to turn and maneuver much better at slow speed.

In my experience, when starting a fight from a beyond visual range, the best pilot wins because of the similarities in basic jet and weapons and avionics between the two jets. Against equal pilots of high skill, if both pilots survive to the merge for a BFM fight, the fight will tend to get slow where the F-18 will out-turn the Eagle but the Eagle will tend to outclimb the Hornet. Once you get 2000 feet vertical on a slow opponent in an Eagle, you have the ability to dive and guns track just about any opponent who is slow and below you and basically horizontal. The slow speed makes it very hard to defeat a gun shot with a guns jink maneuver.

Caveat. I never flew against an F-18 pilot with a lot of air-to-air experience. Most of the Hornet pilots I flew against had transitioned to their jet from other jets (F-104, F-4, etc.) that weren’t good BFM aircraft and had less than 2–3 years in Hornets while I was very experienced by the time I flew against my first Hornet. And F-18 pilots as a whole did not yet have the extensive collective experience of the F-15C community. That’s changed so it would be interesting to learn how the best Hornet pilots of today do against the best Eagle pilots in similar air-to-air configurations.

The original question: F-18 vs. F-16?

I do not know. But if forced to guess, I think it would be similar to the Viper vs. Eagle fight with the F-18 doing better in a slow, vertical fight and the Viper doing better in a higher speed, higher energy fight.

MiG-29 vs. any American modern fighter?

A Fulcrum is very similar to an F-15C in basic aerodynamics and maneuvering capabilities. But the HOTAS (Hands On Throttles And Stick) sucks compared to American fighters. Its my understanding that the Germans couldn’t wait to get rid of their MiG-29’s after East & West merged.

HOTAS is very important during BFM because shot opportunities come and go very quickly and constantly change during different phases of the fight. So you have to constantly work to get and then reacquire a radar lock and to also be ready with the next most likely weapon to be shot so that you can shoot during a 2–3 second window when that is all you have.

When I BFM new F-15 pilots in the Boeing full visual simulator, if we fly exactly the same flight profile, I will typically fire 3–4 times as many shots as the rookie because I recognize when shot envelopes are coming and have selected the correct weapon and gotten the lock ahead of time (when needed). When pointing at my opponent, I can also easily shoot no-lock shots without a radar lock with all of my weapons which new guys tend to not even think about.

Su-27 vs. USAF/USN/USMC fighters (but not the F-22)?

I never flew against them, though I have escorted Flankers across Alaska. They can turn and maneuver very well. They have a lot of gas (i.e. endurance). They have pretty good avionics and weapons. Myself, I do not want to go to a merge against a Flanker. Against an average to below average pilot I will probably be okay. Against a skilled pilot, he may have a big enough turn AND energy advantage that I don’t want to fly either an energy fight or slow speed fight with him.

So my plan would be to pull 10–11 G’s at the merge (I was a G-god at 66.5″ who lifted weights 2–3 times a week and ran 3–4 10K’s a week at my peak so could pull some G’s) . . . which would over-G the jet but not rip the wings off . . . and get the first shot post-merge. That would be a lot easier with the helmet mounted site and AIM-9X.

The real goal would be to never go to a merger with a Flanker. The truth is that in modern, large force scenarios, almost EVERYONE who turns & burns at a merge dies because it so very easy to point for everyone else in the area to shoot from 1+ miles away out to a max visual range or about 5 NM. People don’t survive BFM fights in RED FLAG because everybody and their mother quickly point and shoot at them because they are sitting ducks."


Also from the F-15 s/mtd program, I wonder if the EX has RSS
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by basher54321 » 19 Nov 2022, 15:50

viperzerof-2 wrote:Credit to F-16ADF for this, I’m not actually sure where he got it though


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