F-16A vs F-15A in BFM performance.

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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dundun92

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Unread post28 Sep 2018, 16:55

How well would the F-15A do against the F-16A in a dogfight, both with -100. I know the Eagle is inferior to the -229 and GE F-16C in sustained turns, but I am curious about the A with -100s.
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Sep 2018, 18:26

The F-16A turned well too because it was light, see Gums posts, could sustain 9g at sea level There are also E-M diagrams that have been posted here that confirm this, the F-16A up to about 15kft turned better but the F-15A held up better at higher altitude.
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saberrider

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 07:00

Guess the F15 must be driven with more care than the F16 by the pilot. But the muscle memory helps to keep the pressure off the pilot and F 15 pilot training is 100% dedicate to A to A, so they see opportunities better than other pilot. The F16 is very good in rolling maneuvers euvers and can move more stochastic and nothing happened to him. In Simulators . to me F15 will gain often because I use enough time the afterburner.
Last edited by saberrider on 29 Sep 2018, 13:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 11:57

Only one exception to the no DACT rule was allowed during the early stages of the Netz’s (F-16AB Block5/10) career when six Bazs deployed to Ramat David air base soon after the F-16s arrival in Israel. A handful of the very best F-15 pilots subsequently flew six 1v1 sorties and a single 2v2 mission against the Netz, with these flights being structured in such a way that the WVR capabilities of both aircraft could be directly compared.

(F-15 pilot) Yoram Peled , who was by then a Flying school squadron commander and a Double Tail Squadron EP, flew one of the 1v1 sorties. He subsequently recalled;

I flew against Amir Nachumi in an F-16B and he had Iftach Spector in the backseat. These men were both high scoring Aces, and we had all previously flown in the same squadron together. If my memory serves me right, our pair won the 2v2 training session, but in a 1v1 scenario, the Baz was no match for the Netz. The latter jet has to be the worlds best WVR fighter platform.
Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat (Aloni A, 2006)
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magnum4469

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 15:05

saberrider wrote: F 15 pilot training is 100% dedicate to A to A, so they see opportunities better than other pilot.



You are overlooking the ANG F-16ADF units... From 1989 when FANG got the first F-16ADFs to 2007 when NDANG was last unit to fly the F-16ADF. For 18 years there were as many as 10 units that were 100% F-16 Air to Air. The ANG also had a dedicated school house training unit at Klamath Falls OR. A 6 month RTU in the F-16ADF that did only Air to Air training of students.
Also the USAF Aggressor Squadron at Nellis flew the F-16A for years prior to upgrading to the F-16C in strictly Air to Air role.
Last edited by magnum4469 on 29 Sep 2018, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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zero-one

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Unread post29 Sep 2018, 16:58

basher54321 wrote:
(F-15 pilot) Yoram Peled , who was by then a Flying school squadron commander and a Double Tail Squadron EP, flew one of the 1v1 sorties. He subsequently recalled;

I flew against Amir Nachumi in an F-16B and he had Iftach Spector in the backseat. These men were both high scoring Aces, and we had all previously flown in the same squadron together. If my memory serves me right, our pair won the 2v2 training session, but in a 1v1 scenario, the Baz was no match for the Netz. The latter jet has to be the worlds best WVR fighter platform.
Israeli F-15 Eagle Units in Combat (Aloni A, 2006)[/i]


I'd like to add some small details that may prove useful.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how-t ... 1682723379
An F-15C and GE-powered F-16C merge head-on, no missiles, guns only. This is truly where the F-16 excels. The F-15 is absolutely no slouch in this arena and the margin for error is small, but he F-16 enjoys a sustained turn rate advantage and a thrust-to-weight advantage. My game plan would be not to slow down too much in the F-16. Where the F-16 starts to fall off in comparison is when it gets slow and butts up against its hard-wired angle-of-attack limiter. Slow is not a place to be in the F-16 unless absolutely necessary. I wanted to keep my airspeed up relative to the Eagle and beat him down to where his nose track starts to slow and use the vertical as required and the F-16's turn rate advantage to bring my nose to bear. Both jets bring excellent handling qualities and visibility to the equation. What you really don't want to be is the MiG pilot who faces off against either jet in this scenario.


a few things I noticed

1. He specifically said "a GE powered F-16". This pilot flew the less powerful block 32 and 42 models and the uprated block 30, 40, 50 and 52 models. The F-15A never had the 29,000 pound rated GE or Pratt engines. So its possible that with the same engines the F-15 could have an advantage or at least match the F-16.

So how did the Baz perform so poorly against the Netz

2. He also said no missiles, guns only. The F-16's sleek and small air frame has an advantage in thrust to weight and sustained turns. This advantage may also be noticeable even with same engines.
It's possible the Israeli's also did their DACT training with having both aircraft clean.

Anyway, I've read a lot of pilots saying they've beaten F-15s in dogfights but I seldomly read about F-15s doing well in WVR against 4th gens. The F-15 is one of the few 4th gens that still have a stable air frame.Is it really outclassed against unstable airframes in a dogfight?
Anyone here with some great F-15C WVR accounts from pilots?
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f-16adf

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 18:44

Reference Col. Anderegg's work: Sierra Hotel, Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade after Vietnam

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a476975.pdf


Read what he has to say about F-16 and F-15 on pg 173-179, and on xii of the Introduction.
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dundun92

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 19:15

zero-one wrote:
basher54321 wrote:
Anyway, I've read a lot of pilots saying they've beaten F-15s in dogfights but I seldomly read about F-15s doing well in WVR against 4th gens. The F-15 is one of the few 4th gens that still have a stable air frame.Is it really outclassed against unstable airframes in a dogfight?
Anyone here with some great F-15C WVR accounts from pilots?

Based on the EM diagrams, the F-15 is very competitive WVR. Better STR than the -14A, about equal STR to the -14B/D, and 3° less STR than the GE blk 30 viper.
Last edited by dundun92 on 30 Sep 2018, 21:53, edited 2 times in total.
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basher54321

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 19:23

dundun92 wrote: I found an article written by an Eagle driver a while back, and he did talk about its dogfighting performance. Lemme try to find it.
Also, based on the EM diagrams, the F-15 is very competitive WVR. Better STR than the -14A, about equal STR to the -14B/D, and 3° less STR than the GE blk 30 viper.



You have misquoted me above.


That is where it starts going wrong - WVR /BFM isnt about just STR or insert variable of choice here - that is way too simplistic.
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dundun92

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 21:52

basher54321 wrote:
dundun92 wrote: I found an article written by an Eagle driver a while back, and he did talk about its dogfighting performance. Lemme try to find it.
Also, based on the EM diagrams, the F-15 is very competitive WVR. Better STR than the -14A, about equal STR to the -14B/D, and 3° less STR than the GE blk 30 viper.



You have misquoted me above.


That is where it starts going wrong - WVR /BFM isnt about just STR or insert variable of choice here - that is way too simplistic.

Yes, BFM isn't "just" about STR. That doesn't mean that STR isn't a very important factor. After all, that is the main reason the F-16 is considered an excellent dogfighter.

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