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Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 06:30
by skyward
There was discussion on this forum about the APG-83 radar vs the APG-80 before. I think one thing that was discussed was that the APG-83 was an upgrade to older F-16 radar. It have to fit the power level of older F-16. Since the F-16 block 60 was built with the APG-80 in mind, the power infrastructure was design for it. It maybe that power level to take the full advantage APG-80 was not their in the older F-16 and the performance match that. It will be just to costly to update the power infrastructure of older f-16 to take full advantage of APG-83.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2019, 12:20
by basher54321
skyward wrote:I think one thing that was discussed was that the APG-80 was an upgrade to older F-16 radar. It have to fix the power level of older F-16.


Let's not get confused between old and "derived from" because almost every AESA radar in service has been "derived from" older radars - basically because not much point in reinventing the wheel each time. AFAIK the only F-16 radar that was built entirely from the ground up was the original APG-66 (WX-200) because there was no other suitable digital solid state radar around.

Also correct me if I am wrong but the ES-05 Raven was originally the PS-05 AESA which put an active array onto the existing PS-05A back end.

According to NG the 83 can use the same power and cooling as the 68 but you would have to ignore the trend to reduce power requirements in solid state components over the past 15 years (an eternity) to really conclude this is a significant limitation. Greece and Morocco are happily replacing APG-68v9s (a radar claimed to have 33% better range than the 68v5) so it probably ain't that bad!

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 14:47
by swiss
I think nobody said the APG-83 is a bad Radar. Im sure its a big improvement over the APG-68. But all available data seems to say , its inferior to the APG-80. For several reasons mentioned in this forum.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 19:13
by juretrn
If Deagel is correct, then I'd say based on this
It is designed to fit F-16 aircraft with no structural, power or cooling modifications

APG-83 might as well be a "lesser" product.
However, one must take into account cost! If the -83 has 10% less performance but reduces cost by much more than that it doesn't really matter. And I'd say if you don't have to take half the a/c apart to perform a radar upgrade then you've already won that performance/$$$ battle.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 20:06
by swiss
juretrn wrote:If Deagel is correct, then I'd say based on this
It is designed to fit F-16 aircraft with no structural, power or cooling modifications

APG-83 might as well be a "lesser" product.
However, one must take into account cost! If the -83 has 10% less performance but reduces cost by much more than that it doesn't really matter. And I'd say if you don't have to take half the a/c apart to perform a radar upgrade then you've already won that performance/$$$ battle.


I fully agree with you.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2019, 22:43
by ricnunes
swiss wrote:I think nobody said the APG-83 is a bad Radar. Im sure its a big improvement over the APG-68. But all available data seems to say , its inferior to the APG-80. For several reasons mentioned in this forum.


Also note that I'm not saying that the APG-83 is better than the APG-80. Yes, I definitely could believe that the APG-80 should be "better" than the APG-83 (in terms of detection range, that is). I also fully agree that installing an APG-83 will/would be quite cheaper than doing the same with the APG-80 hence why the former was selected for the F-16V and not the later.
What I'm "saying" is that I have my very strong doubts that the APG-83 is "as bad" as some data seem to point out (such as only having 33% or so better detection radar then older APG-68 radars).
I'm saying this because of that basher said in his last post which I'll quote below:
basher54321 wrote:Greece and Morocco are happily replacing APG-68v9s (a radar claimed to have 33% better range than the 68v5) so it probably ain't that bad!

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 20:47
by swiss
ricnunes wrote:What I'm "saying" is that I have my very strong doubts that the APG-83 is "as bad" as some data seem to point out (such as only having 33% or so better detection radar then older APG-68 radars).
I'm saying this because of that basher said in his last post which I'll quote below:
basher54321 wrote:Greece and Morocco are happily replacing APG-68v9s (a radar claimed to have 33% better range than the 68v5) so it probably ain't that bad!


Ok. The range statement was from Airforce monthely (over 30% more then the APG-66) one year ago. This seems a reliable source to me.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 17:02
by madrat
Even if it had 0% range boost, the finer granularity of the picture it offers of the same airspace makes it worthwhile. It's more than just a boost in technology. The mission availability rate will be higher and the MTBF will be substantially different.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2020, 02:06
by marsavian
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/fi ... 56.article

Referring to the Gripen bid specifically, he says: “We will test what Saab has put in its response – for example, whether the [Leonardo Raven ES-05] radar can detect a target at 100km [54nm].”


APG-80 and APG-83 estimated at 64nm and 47nm respectively for a 1 sq m target so what RCS are Saab quoting detection for ?

Image

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2020, 07:17
by optimist
This isn't bad brochure for info on the F-16 block 70. The base model going forward.
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... ochure.pdf


The company is witnessing rising demand for new production F-16 aircraft. Bahrain, Slovakia and Bulgaria are the three customers who have signed up for the procurement of the advanced fighter machines.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/new ... 0-bahrain/

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2020, 19:15
by gabi_johnson
Pretty much what you stated. Avionics and systems seem to be roughly equal, although I think F-16V likely has advantages in software development and maturity as much of it comes from other projects like F-35.

Re: F-16V vs Gripen NG

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2020, 22:03
by optimist
gabi_johnson wrote:Pretty much what you stated. Avionics and systems seem to be roughly equal, although I think F-16V likely has advantages in software development and maturity as much of it comes from other projects like F-35.

Hi and welcome. I think the V stands for Viper. unveiled in 2012. So you are right, it may be F-16V block 70.