F-16V vs F-15C (ANG)

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 18:21

wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:—John A. Tirpak

...Holmes noted, but to keep the fleet “functional” into the late ’20s will only cost about $1 million per airplane. “I think that’s probably a good deal,” Holmes said of the lower figure, “but to spend $30-$40 million to keep them for another 10 years beyond that may not be.”



2) why do you insist on citing the $30-40 million per aircraft numbers? I've already shown you that those numbers reflect complete rebuilds/zeroizing the airframes, to keep them flying another 40+ years. $1 million per aircraft will keep them flying till past 2030.

The posted quote clearly calls out that $1m will only get you TO 2028 give or take. If you want past 2030, like you said, that will be the $30-40m
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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 18:42

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:—John A. Tirpak

...Holmes noted, but to keep the fleet “functional” into the late ’20s will only cost about $1 million per airplane. “I think that’s probably a good deal,” Holmes said of the lower figure, “but to spend $30-$40 million to keep them for another 10 years beyond that may not be.”



2) why do you insist on citing the $30-40 million per aircraft numbers? I've already shown you that those numbers reflect complete rebuilds/zeroizing the airframes, to keep them flying another 40+ years. $1 million per aircraft will keep them flying till past 2030.

The posted quote clearly calls out that $1m will only get you TO 2028 give or take. If you want past 2030, like you said, that will be the $30-40m

In this particular quote. I've pointed out another more specific quote to him, on more than one occasion, stating precisely what I posted.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/04 ... -proposal/

"By replacing the aircraft's longerons — the thin strips of material that make up the skeleton of an aircraft — the Air Force can extend the life of the F-15C/D past 2030 for about $1 million per aircraft, Boeing's vice president of F-15 programs, Steve Parker, said during an April 17 interview."

"That would be an expensive proposition at anywhere from $30 million to $40 million.

But that figure represents the most comprehensive rebuild Boeing could do of the jets, Parker said, noting that the company could do other modifications at a cheaper price point.
What is referred to in that statement is what we would term to be the most costly potential solution," he said. "If you wanted to almost zero out the life of the airframe, you could go and replace the fuselage, you can go replace the wings. But you would do that if the aircraft was going to go out another 40, 50, 60 years."

So, it's disingenuous to even bring those sorts of numbers up, as it's not being contemplated. It's especially disingenuous to bring it up, in the context of the E models.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 18:56

Odd that there is such a discrepancy in the statements.
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Unread post10 Jul 2018, 22:24

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Odd that there is such a discrepancy in the statements.

I trust the VP from Boeing's numbers.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 01:28

wrightwing wrote:
1) how does an observation about C/D models correlate to E models (which are similar in age, but far more capable than F-16s?)
2) why do you insist on citing the $30-40 million per aircraft numbers? I've already shown you that those numbers reflect complete rebuilds/zeroizing the airframes, to keep them flying another 40+ years. $1 million per aircraft will keep them flying till past 2030.


1.) Title of thread is F-16V vs F-15C. Plus, when was the last delivery of the F-15C and the first delivery of the F-15E. :wink:
2.) If, you keep the F-15C's past 2030. You will need the $30-40 Million upgrade.....
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 02:12

Honestly, I think many are misunderstanding the difference between the $1 Million and $30-40 Million Upgrade of the F-15C??? The former is just some basic airframe upgrades. Which, would get the F-15C to 2030 and beyond. While, the latter would be a complete upgrade from airframe to avionics. (including AESA Radar, EPAWSS, IRST, etc.)

Yet, without the full upgrade the F-15C would not be survivable post 2030. (if then) :doh:


If, you want to keep the Eagle for another decade or more. Then you will need both upgrades hence $30-40 Million. Yet, why even spend $1 Million. When the current fleet could last a few more years....This is why the USAF wants to retire the F-15C within the next few years.
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 04:40

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
1) how does an observation about C/D models correlate to E models (which are similar in age, but far more capable than F-16s?)
2) why do you insist on citing the $30-40 million per aircraft numbers? I've already shown you that those numbers reflect complete rebuilds/zeroizing the airframes, to keep them flying another 40+ years. $1 million per aircraft will keep them flying till past 2030.


1.) Title of thread is F-16V vs F-15C. Plus, when was the last delivery of the F-15C and the first delivery of the F-15E. :wink:
2.) If, you keep the F-15C's past 2030. You will need the $30-40 Million upgrade.....

You're correct on the thread title. You changed the topic to the E model, with a new assertion. Keeping past 2030 doesn't require $30-40 million in upgrades. Those upgrades would be required if the F-15C was going to be kept till 2050-2070. To keep till 2040+ would likely be ~$10-15 million ea.
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 04:42

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, I think many are misunderstanding the difference between the $1 Million and $30-40 Million Upgrade of the F-15C??? The former is just some basic airframe upgrades. Which, would get the F-15C to 2030 and beyond. While, the latter would be a complete upgrade from airframe to avionics. (including AESA Radar, EPAWSS, IRST, etc.)

Yet, without the full upgrade the F-15C would not be survivable post 2030. (if then) :doh:


If, you want to keep the Eagle for another decade or more. Then you will need both upgrades hence $30-40 Million. Yet, why even spend $1 Million. When the current fleet could last a few more years....This is why the USAF wants to retire the F-15C within the next few years.

The new radars, computers, cockpit displays are already funded.
Many of the Cs already have the AESA radars, and various other upgrades.
The $30-40 million figure is for basically rebuilding the fuselage, new wings, new wiring, fly by wire, etc....so the aircraft can fly 30 to 50 more years.
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 07:15

google F-15c + "IEE passive attack display", "ADCP II". Also "APX-114", "calculex MONSSTR", "RIPR".
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 09:22

Honestly, we can go back and forth all day. Yet, simple fact is the USAF has a plan to retire the F-15C. So, my guess is they have judged that keeping the F-15C's in not worth it......
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Unread post11 Jul 2018, 10:47

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, we can go back and forth all day. Yet, simple fact is the USAF has a plan to retire the F-15C. So, my guess is they have judged that keeping the F-15C's in not worth it......


The official plan to retire the F-15C has not changed since 2009 which was to keep the F-15Cs at least to 2035. The difference today is people assuming that media reports equal to an official plan.
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Unread post12 Jul 2018, 01:39

weasel1962 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, we can go back and forth all day. Yet, simple fact is the USAF has a plan to retire the F-15C. So, my guess is they have judged that keeping the F-15C's in not worth it......


The official plan to retire the F-15C has not changed since 2009 which was to keep the F-15Cs at least to 2035. The difference today is people assuming that media reports equal to an official plan.




I guess I need to post this again..........


QUOTE:

Air Force cut F-15C upgrades as it planned to retire fighter, IG report says

By JAMES BOLINGER | STARS AND STRIPES
Published: June 8, 2018

The Air Force canceled expensive upgrades to 196 F-15C fighters last year as it hammered out a plan to retire the jets, according to a recently declassified report.

The fighters were supposed to get new electronic warfare equipment known as the Eagle Passive/Active Warning and Survivability System, said the Department of Defense Inspector General report declassified on May 21.

The Air Force had planned to spend $3.4 billion installing the gear on all F-15Cs and 217 F-15Es, giving them “electronic warfare capabilities to detect and identify air and ground threats, employ counter-measures, and jam enemy radar signals,” the report said.

However, in February 2017 the service ordered a 47 percent cut to the number of jets getting the new equipment, which replaces a dated 1970s electronic warfare package and is designed to increase the F-15C’s survivability in a contested environment.

The IG report outlined a timeline for retiring the jets, but many details were redacted.

Before that happens, Air Force officials must brief Congress on options to replace F-15C Air Superiority Mission capabilities, validate whether upgraded F-16s are a viable replacement, and identify transition plans for locations that support F-15C aircraft, personnel, operations or maintenance activities, the report said.

Officials from the service told lawmakers in March 2017 that they would consider retiring the aircraft during budget planning for the 2019 fiscal year.
If Congress doesn’t approve the retirement, the Air Force will restore funds to install the electronic warfare gear on F-15Cs based on mission requirements, an Air Force official said in the report.
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Unread post12 Jul 2018, 02:08

Nothing in that report changed the F-15C retirement date. Just mentioned they had to re-consider. The last official mention I can find is still at least 2035. It is the job of the USAF to constantly consider the state of its fleet. Nothing new.

Having said that, if a plane can't last until 2035, it would be strange to only retire them in 2035. Even so, F-35 induction also requires the air force to decide which squadrons gets replaced first and what to do with the aircraft. It will likely be a progressive replacement.
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Unread post12 Jul 2018, 02:18

Full report for IG is per below.

http://www.dodig.mil/reports.html/Artic ... ty-system/

The redaction is what gets the media all excited and imagination then runs wild.

Just think about it, in Feb 2017, DCS AF issued the directive on the retirement, then in Mar 2017, the AF leadership then went to the hill and said this...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-435721/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Jul 2018, 03:06

weasel1962 wrote:Full report for IG is per below.

http://www.dodig.mil/reports.html/Artic ... ty-system/

The redaction is what gets the media all excited and imagination then runs wild.

Just think about it, in Feb 2017, DCS AF issued the directive on the retirement, then in Mar 2017, the AF leadership then went to the hill and said this...



YOUR SOURCE..........

QUOTE: Finding:

EPAWSS program officials updated the test and evaluation master plan to respond to concerns raised by Air Force and DoD test officials. Additionally, EPAWSS program officials developed an EPAWSS design that can meet capability requirements.

Furthermore, in September 2016, the Air Force fully funded the EPAWSS program through production to satisfy an urgent need for modernized F-15 electronic warfare capabilities. However, in February 2017, the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Strategic Plans and Requirements (DCS AF/A5/8) cancelled the upgrade of 196 F-15C aircraft with EPAWSS and removed procurement funds, which resulted in a 47 percent decrease of the total program production quantity.

The quantity decrease of the F-15C EPAWSS production units and the removal of funds occurred because the DCS AF/A5/8 decided to use F-15C EPAWSS procurement funds to develop a higher priority air superiority program.




YOUR SOURCE

QUOTE:

“We are not replacing it at this time,” Lt Gen Jerry Harris, USAF deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements, says. “It’s something we are looking at as we continue to bring in more fifth-gen capability...what assets do we push out at the bottom of that chain?”


The air force is undertaking an analysis that compares the purchase of new F-16s and servicing the F-15s, Harris confirmed. Meanwhile, President Donald Trump's nominee for secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson, may not wait on those results to determine a way forward on the F-15 retirement. During her 30 March Senate confirmation hearing, Wilson refused a request from Senator Elizabeth Warren to delay the retirement until the Senate receives the comparison analysis.

The USAF will be able to form a better idea of the F-15’s future once the F-35 becomes a full operational platform, Harris told reporters. He also countered that the F-16 could perform the F-15’s traditional air-to-air role, something lawmakers have questioned.

In short the USAF is working on a plan but hasn't summited it to Congress yet....... (i.e. wait for the right time) :wink:
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 12 Jul 2018, 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
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