F-16 versus Indian LCA

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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Corous

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Unread post16 May 2006, 09:24

Okay, probably, not a whole lot of us have heard of the Indian Light Combat Aircraft program. It's a delta-wing aircraft with relaxed stability and fly-by-wire. It's got a GE F404 engine, 7 pylons, and will carry AA-11s and AA-12s. The Indians stated that it is designed to be better than the F-20, which puts its theoratic performance fairly close to that of the viper. So here's our match-up, feel free to comment.
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boff180

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Unread post16 May 2006, 09:32

Hmm, interesting one... the LCA certainly has potential (after all they are making a navalised version).

However it isn't really designed as a dogfighter or an air combat aircraft; it likened as a replacement for the Jaguar.

Looking at the size of the flaperons/elevons in relation to the aircraft I'd say it has quite a potent instantaneous turn capability although with all "stable" delta's I would suspect its sustained turns are awful.

Also, for a delta the wing is quite high-set on the airframe, while I don't pretend to have a detailed knowledge of aviation dynamics; it helps reduce buffeting when low down but at the sacrifice of manouverability if I remember rightly.

I'll reserve judgement till the summer. It sounds like they are bringing one to the UK for Farnborough, whether it is on static or flying remains to be seen.

Andy
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Viper786

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Unread post27 Jun 2006, 01:16

alight i would say there is no match up because theirs never gonna be a LCA, its been so many years and over a billion USD wasted on this project and still has so many defects. DRDO ( Indian defense organization) says every year that " next year serial production will start " but it never does :roll:. loll similarity between LCA and UFO's is we heard alot about it but never in real life. and by the time LCA does come into play Pakistans JF-17 will be phased out already. to think about how smart India acutely is instead of spending 1 billion on LCA they could have bought 50 mirages. the JF-17 took 15 years to the initial plan to active service and serial production. it took 20 years for F/A-22 to be built but LCA being a 8th generation fighter took 26 years and counting. i know there will never be a battle between a F-16 and LCA because LCA will come in when F-35 if phased out
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Yugandhar

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Unread post22 Aug 2006, 07:32

boff180 wrote:However it isn't really designed as a dogfighter or an air combat aircraft; it likened as a replacement for the Jaguar.

It is designed to replace the MiG-21, and will form the main aircraft of the IAF.

It is designed to be highly manoueverable at high speeds, and has features to be manoueverable at lower speeds also. It will be equivalent or better than the Mirage-2000.
boff180 wrote:Looking at the size of the flaperons/elevons in relation to the aircraft I'd say it has quite a potent instantaneous turn capability although with all "stable" delta's I would suspect its sustained turns are awful.

You may be right, but it has compound delta wings which are cranked from the front. This must alleivate some problems in sustained turning.
boff180 wrote:Also, for a delta the wing is quite high-set on the airframe, while I don't pretend to have a detailed knowledge of aviation dynamics; it helps reduce buffeting when low down but at the sacrifice of manouverability if I remember rightly.

Delta-wings ensure high-speed, high-altitude manoueverability, but at the same time they hamper low-speed low altitude manoueverability. LCA's FBW and modifications in its wing design must take care of the latter problem.
Viper786 wrote:its been so many years and over a billion USD wasted on this project and still has so many defects.

It has no defects. It handles better than Mirage-2000 according to all its test-pilots.
Viper786 wrote:by the time LCA does come into play Pakistans JF-17 will be phased out already.

As though JF-17 production is beginning tommorrow. In 2005, Pak set-up a plant and said production begins in 2006. Now only PT-04 has flown and they say production begins in 2007.
WS-13 engine is nowhere near completion (most estimates say it wont be till 2009). So the first lot of JF-17s will fly out only by 2009-2010.

LCA's airframe is a generation ahead of a JF-17 which has No composites, No FBW, T/W < 1 and carries a lesser payload.

LCA's A2A must be equivalent to Block 52 F-16. But the same cant be said of A2G though.
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Viper786

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Unread post23 Aug 2006, 05:59

OK all that good and well said but the thing is where is the LCA, if its as good as you say it is then where is it, Indian air officials have said them selves that LCA has taken to long and will be expecting to come out in 2015 when alot of modern day aircraft are retired, and i don't know ABOUT THE HANDLING BEING COMPARED TO MIRAGE -2000 and A2A being as good as F-16 Block 52 i think thats expatriating the point lets let it start production to even say anything and Pakistan is getting there first JF-17 in march of this year AND PLEASE BACK YOUR CLIAMS UP ABOUT THINGS LIKE HOW LCA IS A GENERATION AHEAD OF JF-17 and if it is why is it taking about 25 years to come out with and why dont they do manuvers on the test flights are they scared parts might fall off, seriously get links and ligitamate links to back this up then ill belive every word you say ok and please please dont compare it to F-16 because thats like saying a ferrari VS a honda civic
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pafpilot

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Unread post23 Aug 2006, 20:05

So the first lot of JF-17s will fly out only by 2009-2010.

In 2007 , PAF is expected to recieve first 25 jets after which production will begin in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.So please explain your point?
LCA's airframe is a generation ahead of a JF-17 which has No composites, No FBW, T/W < 1 and carries a lesser payload.

LCA's A2A must be equivalent to Block 52 F-16. But the same cant be said of A2G though.

Both JF-17 and LCA have seven external hardpoints.SO you cant just simply say that one can carry a better payload than the other.And you said that JF-17 has no FBW , if you mean FLY-BY-wire , then for your information JF-17 had "Dual fly by wire" system.
Although i am no Aeronautical expert , i see that the pilot's rear visibility in LCA is too poor.Any comments.!
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Ayubi

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Unread post24 Aug 2006, 04:12

Also, the LCA is having alot of problams, the IAF isn't really interstated in it, And like stated above, it won't be out until ATLEAST 2015. JF-17, well they will be in service early next year, also LCA and jf-17 are a same generation fighter. :)
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Yugandhar

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Unread post25 Aug 2006, 13:33

Viper786 wrote:OK all that good and well said but the thing is where is the LCA, if its as good as you say it is then where is it

559 test flights were completed yesterday. Please look at this link :
http://www.ada.gov.in/others/MoreCurren ... tnews.html LCA test flights take place every few days.
Viper786 wrote:Indian air officials have said them selves that LCA has taken to long and will be expecting to come out in 2015

LCA will be in squadron strength in 2012. Limited series production of LCA has begun.
Viper786 wrote:and i don't know ABOUT THE HANDLING BEING COMPARED TO MIRAGE -2000

Official website of NAL says that LCA handles better than Mirage in landing according to its test-pilots. This is the site :
www.nal.res.in/pages/ipjun01.htm
Viper786 wrote:and A2A being as good as F-16 Block 52

I said that upon comparing the specifications. You can independently compare them (there are many sources), and then if you disagree we can discuss.
Viper786 wrote:Pakistan is getting there first JF-17 in march of this year

When Chinese engine for JF-17 is not yet ready, how will JF-17 enter PAF service ? Russia has clearly stated that it wont allow China to give RD-93 engine to Pakistan.
Viper786 wrote:AND PLEASE BACK YOUR CLIAMS UP ABOUT THINGS LIKE HOW LCA IS A GENERATION AHEAD OF JF-17

I have already given the reasons. pafpilot only corrected me about FBW. So JF-17 has no composites, and T/W < 1 (sinodefence.com). LCA has 45% composites, T/W=1.17.
Viper786 wrote:and if it is why is it taking about 25 years to come out with and why dont they do manuvers on the test flights are they scared parts might fall off,

LCA manouever videos :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQj0cpiZZCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE11HJgHdNI
pafpilot wrote:Both JF-17 and LCA have seven external hardpoints.SO you cant just simply say that one can carry a better payload than the other.

JF-17's weapon-load is 3600 kg. LCA's weapon load is 4000 kg. Number of hardpoints do not matter nuch.
pafpilot wrote:And you said that JF-17 has no FBW , if you mean FLY-BY-wire , then for your information JF-17 had "Dual fly by wire" system.

OK I stand corrected on that one.
Ayubi wrote:Also, the LCA is having alot of problams,

Name one other than delay and kaveri.
Ayubi wrote:the IAF isn't really interstated in it,

Then why did IAF sign an order for 20 LCA ?

Please refer this :
http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/27/stories ... 310300.htm

Air Chief Tyagi, "We are indenting for 20 LCAs and there is no doubt about it. I am happy with the performance of the LCA and glad we are advancing technologically to produce one of the better fighters; I wish the LCA development was faster."
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Unread post25 Aug 2006, 14:47

JF-17's weapon-load is 3600 kg. LCA's weapon load is 4000 kg. Number of hardpoints do not matter nuch

JF-17's weapons-load is 3800 kg .Can LCA carry westren missiles or bombs.? Its range is 850 kms and JF-17's range is 1350 kms.LCA can carry only R-77,R-73 and Astra BVRAAM.

LCA is not even equal to the JF-17 and you compare it with the viper!!!. And you still insist that it is equal to blk 52 viper in air-combat capabilities?

Another thing... is IAF only going for 20 LCAs ?
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Yugandhar

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Unread post25 Aug 2006, 16:57

pafpilot wrote:JF-17's weapons-load is 3800 kg .

Sinodef says 3600. Either load is 3600 kg and Max. speed is Mach 1.8, or load is 3800 kg and Max. speed is Mach 1.6. LCA has M1.8 speed.
pafpilot wrote:Its range is 850 kms and JF-17's range is 1350 kms

Agreed. LCA is the smallest lightest combat plane. So it cant be expected it to have much range.
pafpilot wrote:Can LCA carry westren missiles or bombs.? .LCA can carry only R-77,R-73 and Astra BVRAAM.

That should be enough. IAF may also integrate Matra Magic missiles if it desires. JF-17 is not carrying AiM-120C or sidewinders is it ?
pafpilot wrote:Another thing,,,is IAF only going for 20 LCAs ?

IAF never said that this will be its last and final order. So more will be ordered if IAF desires.
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Ayubi

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Unread post25 Aug 2006, 22:32

Yugandhar wrote:
Ayubi wrote:Also, the LCA is having alot of problams,

Name one other than delay and kaveri.
Ayubi wrote:the IAF isn't really interstated in it,

Then why did IAF sign an order for 20 LCA ?

Please refer this :
http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/27/stories ... 310300.htm

Air Chief Tyagi, "We are indenting for 20 LCAs and there is no doubt about it. I am happy with the performance of the LCA and glad we are advancing technologically to produce one of the better fighters; I wish the LCA development was faster."


Buddy, the IAF signing 20 aircrafts is not something to be proud of since the LCA was made to replace those old migs, which i belive are in hudereds not 20
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Unread post26 Aug 2006, 10:37

JF-17's weapons-load is 3800 kg.

Sinodef says 3600


Check it out again.Sinodefence and some other sources say that its weapons load is 3800 kg.

JF-17 is not carrying AiM-120C or sidewinders is it ?


FC-1s primary air to air weapon is a medium range SD-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile. Other weapons it can carry are short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc. In addition to that it can carry wide array of high and low drag bombs, laser guided bombs, runway penetration bombs and cluster bombs for air strikes.Because of SD-10 AMRAAMs are not required but if PAF gets them , then the aircraft can be modified to carry them.

pafpilot wrote:
Another thing... is IAF only going for 20 LCAs ?

IAF never said that this will be its last and final order. So more will be ordered if IAF desires.


I dont understand!! LCA was built to replace MiG-21s.You have hundreads of MiG-21s and IAF orders only 20?
A MiG at you SIX, is better than no MiG at all!!
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Unread post26 Aug 2006, 11:49

pafpilot wrote:Check it out again.Sinodefence and some other sources say that its weapons load is 3800 kg.

I guess both of us are right (or wrong). sinodefence website says :

Max weapon payload 3800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6

Whats the difference bet Max weapon load and Maximum weapon Payload ?

Please look at what I said : Either its 3,800 kg or Mach 1.6 OR 3,600 kg and Mach 1.8. Check out Pakistanidefence website on JF-17.
pafpilot wrote:FC-1s primary air to air weapon is a medium range SD-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile. Other weapons it can carry are short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc.

All of these are Chinese weapons and 2 French.

PL-11 is based on the licenced Aspide. Besides, the earlier versions of PL-10 and PL-11 were largely failures according to sinodefence, so China made PL-12 (also called SD-10).

pafpilot wrote:In addition to that it can carry wide array of high and low drag bombs, laser guided bombs, runway penetration bombs and cluster bombs for air strikes.

LCA will also carry Russian LGBs and conventional A2G missiles.
pafpilot wrote:I dont understand!! LCA was built to replace MiG-21s.You have hundreads of MiG-21s and
IAF orders only 20.???????

20 have been ordered as Limited Series Production variants. More will be ordered as it gets IoC and then FoC.
Last edited by Yugandhar on 26 Aug 2006, 11:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post26 Aug 2006, 11:49

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Unread post26 Aug 2006, 15:24

FC-1s primary air to air weapon is a medium range SD-10 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile. Other weapons it can carry are short and medium range AAMs (Anti-Air Missiles) like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E etc.

All of these are Chinese weapons and 2 French.

AIM-9 sidewinder and AIM-7 sparrow are US made weapons . AIM-9 is a typical AAM which PAF aircrafts carry. It is a short-range , heat guided missile.AIM-7 is a long range missile. It is semi-active radar homing missile and PAF has never received them from the US.
LCA will also carry Russian LGBs and conventional A2G missiles.

I never said that LCA couldnt caryy any A-G stuff.I asked you if it could carry US/western bombs? Just for my info........
A MiG at you SIX, is better than no MiG at all!!
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