F-16 versus Mirage F1

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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SixShooter

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Unread post08 Jan 2006, 01:38

OK everyone,

Here is another one to consider...

F-16 (any mark) versus the Mirage F1 series. Things to consider:

1. Last French fighter configuration with Matra Super 530 (did it ever carry the replacement to the 530 series?) and Magic 550.
2. Improved version currently flown by Spain with US avionics and Sidewinder.

I know the F-16 will easily outclimb it but what about visual ACM and long range intercept?

Let the comparisons begin...

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SixShooter
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kubam4a1

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Unread post08 Jan 2006, 20:00

F-16C/D/E/F as well as F16 MLU would easily cope with Mirage F1. However, F-16A/B would have much trouble, especially Non-ADF version. It is about 50 % probability that Super 530 will hit F-16 I think. So, the F1 has to fire Super 530 BVR, direct it until it hits Viper (or until it misses due to being jammed by the F-16, malfunction etc.) and then run. If we have two-to-two fight one of Super 530 will hit, then 2 F1s can try to attack Viper, but it will still be very dangerous to attack Viper because of the fact that it has got AIM-9Ls which can be fired not only to the target's six, but also to target's twelve and it will probably fire its Sidewinders, it is very difficult to evade two AIM-9Ls... Then we'll have quite fair dogfight with the second one, so....
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Grounded1971

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Unread post11 Feb 2006, 20:35

Hi, I'm new to this forum and am probably wrong on this, but I thought that a Greek Mirage III or Mirage 2000 took out a Turkish F-16 about 2 or 3 years ago. As far as I can remember, that was the only proper air-to-air combat loss. (I can remember stories of one lucky kill by some Russians on a Pakistani F-16 over Afghanistan in the 1980s but it involved part of a Russian bombload being ingested into the F-16s engine or something equally improbable, and it thus couldn't realistically be counted as A2A combat). So is the Mirage the only aircraft with the distinction of battle honours against the F-16?
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Cad

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Unread post18 Jun 2007, 20:54

the main disadvantage of the mirage f-1 is his engine, his wing loading is also worse (91 lb/ft²)...
that`s why his rate of climb is smaler than f-16, turn performance and acceleration are lower ....
basicly in dogfight f-16 has no problem.
the super 530 would be a problem for f-16 a/b because even if the first hit is not succesfull the viper vould be in a defensive position.
the magic 2 missile is similar to aim-9 so: no advantage here for the f-16...
the best tactic for f-16a/b would be that used by israel in 1982 against siria.
during golf war f16 did not fly air to air misions against IRAQ ( MIG-29, MIRAGE F-1,MIG-23, MIG-25) ALL bvr fighters.
a f-16 armed with AMRAAM has no problem against mirage f1.
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Cad

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Unread post18 Jun 2007, 21:08

double post
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avon1944

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Unread post20 Apr 2009, 03:16

Cad wrote:the magic 2 missile is similar to aim-9 so: no advantage here for the f-16...
the best tactic for f-16a/b would be that used by israel in 1982 against siria.

What tactic did the Israeli AF use again Syria??

Cad wrote:during golf war f16 did not fly air to air misions against IRAQ ( MIG-29, MIRAGE F-1,MIG-23, MIG-25) ALL bvr fighters.

While the F-16s had no contact during the war, during Operation Deny Flight a 12/27/92 the F-16D was the first to use an AMRAAM to shoot down an Iraqi MiG-25!
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duplex

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Unread post15 Aug 2010, 19:26

Grounded1971 wrote:Hi, I'm new to this forum and am probably wrong on this, but I thought that a Greek Mirage III or Mirage 2000 took out a Turkish F-16 about 2 or 3 years ago. As far as I can remember, that was the only proper air-to-air combat loss. (I can remember stories of one lucky kill by some Russians on a Pakistani F-16 over Afghanistan in the 1980s but it involved part of a Russian bombload being ingested into the F-16s engine or something equally improbable, and it thus couldn't realistically be counted as A2A combat). So is the Mirage the only aircraft with the distinction of battle honours against the F-16?



Wrong...It was a Mirage 2000-5 and the Turkish F-16 was unarmed...
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dim36

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Unread post18 Mar 2011, 14:18

duplex wrote:
Grounded1971 wrote:Hi, I'm new to this forum and am probably wrong on this, but I thought that a Greek Mirage III or Mirage 2000 took out a Turkish F-16 about 2 or 3 years ago. As far as I can remember, that was the only proper air-to-air combat loss. (I can remember stories of one lucky kill by some Russians on a Pakistani F-16 over Afghanistan in the 1980s but it involved part of a Russian bombload being ingested into the F-16s engine or something equally improbable, and it thus couldn't realistically be counted as A2A combat). So is the Mirage the only aircraft with the distinction of battle honours against the F-16?



Wrong...It was a Mirage 2000-5 and the Turkish F-16 was unarmed...

It was a mirage 2000 not a 2000-5.Greece got the 2000-5 after 2005.The turkish f-16 was armed as always.
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memzey

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Unread post18 Mar 2011, 22:50

The F-16 was unarmed and departing the merge.
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lok

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Unread post17 Jan 2014, 09:44

memzey wrote:The F-16 was unarmed and departing the merge.


Totally inaccurate info.

Was 4 TUAF F-4E and 2 TUAF F-16C armed and violated the Greek airspace. 2 HAF M2000 scrabled for interceprion and engaged TUAF formation. Then 1 F-16 shot down by Magic 2.
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alx2

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Unread post24 Jul 2014, 07:56

Grounded1971 wrote:Hi, I'm new to this forum and am probably wrong on this, but I thought that a Greek Mirage III or Mirage 2000 took out a Turkish F-16 about 2 or 3 years ago. As far as I can remember, that was the only proper air-to-air combat loss. (I can remember stories of one lucky kill by some Russians on a Pakistani F-16 over Afghanistan in the 1980s but it involved part of a Russian bombload being ingested into the F-16s engine or something equally improbable, and it thus couldn't realistically be counted as A2A combat). So is the Mirage the only aircraft with the distinction of battle honours against the F-16?


Hello,
new to this forum as well :mrgreen:

It appears you are confusing two different cases. There was indeed a dogfight between a Greek M2K and a Turkish F-16 in 1996, resulting in the shooting down of the Turkish aircraft via a Matra Magic shot. A few more details here. It's an old story and probably has been discussed already.

However, there was also a dogfight between a Greek Mirage F1 and a Turkish F-16 in 1992 resulting in the Greek aircraft being forced to crash land in the Aegean and pilot Lt. Sialmas dead. Presumably it was a one-vs-one airfight and the F-16 clearly demonstrated its superiority.

Two years later there was another similar dogfight, this time between two pairs of Mirage F1s and Turkish F-16s. One of the two F-16s withdrew towards Turkish airspace but the other merged into a dogfight with the Greek aircraft. This time however the two Greek fighters worked together supporting each other ultimately forcing the Turk pilot to crash in the Aegean as well, though he managed to eject. A few more details here. He was later retrieved by a Greek SAR helo and treated in a hospital at the Rhodes island.

One needs to take into account that training was a decisive factor in both of these engagements. Greece at the time operated both Mirage F1s and F-16s, so Greek Mirage F1 pilots had the luxury to routinely train against F-16s in every possible scenario, thus being extremely familiar with its strengths and weaknesses, knowing when and how to fight and when to run away. Turkish pilots did not have that luxury, their only chance to train against Mirage F1s being in cases of international NATO exercises or in joint exercises with some Arab nations' Air forces. Mock dogfights in a controlled environment certainly cannot prepare you for a real situation.

This is why Mirage F1s stayed in service for so long even after the introduction of superior Turkish F-16s in the Aegean. They were withdrawn from service in 2004.
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wil59

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Unread post11 Jul 2015, 16:05

alx2 wrote:
Grounded1971 wrote:Hi, I'm new to this forum and am probably wrong on this, but I thought that a Greek Mirage III or Mirage 2000 took out a Turkish F-16 about 2 or 3 years ago. As far as I can remember, that was the only proper air-to-air combat loss. (I can remember stories of one lucky kill by some Russians on a Pakistani F-16 over Afghanistan in the 1980s but it involved part of a Russian bombload being ingested into the F-16s engine or something equally improbable, and it thus couldn't realistically be counted as A2A combat). So is the Mirage the only aircraft with the distinction of battle honours against the F-16?


Hello,
new to this forum as well :mrgreen:

It appears you are confusing two different cases. There was indeed a dogfight between a Greek M2K and a Turkish F-16 in 1996, resulting in the shooting down of the Turkish aircraft via a Matra Magic shot. A few more details here. It's an old story and probably has been discussed already.

However, there was also a dogfight between a Greek Mirage F1 and a Turkish F-16 in 1992 resulting in the Greek aircraft being forced to crash land in the Aegean and pilot Lt. Sialmas dead. Presumably it was a one-vs-one airfight and the F-16 clearly demonstrated its superiority.

Two years later there was another similar dogfight, this time between two pairs of Mirage F1s and Turkish F-16s. One of the two F-16s withdrew towards Turkish airspace but the other merged into a dogfight with the Greek aircraft. This time however the two Greek fighters worked together supporting each other ultimately forcing the Turk pilot to crash in the Aegean as well, though he managed to eject. A few more details here. He was later retrieved by a Greek SAR helo and treated in a hospital at the Rhodes island.

One needs to take into account that training was a decisive factor in both of these engagements. Greece at the time operated both Mirage F1s and F-16s, so Greek Mirage F1 pilots had the luxury to routinely train against F-16s in every possible scenario, thus being extremely familiar with its strengths and weaknesses, knowing when and how to fight and when to run away. Turkish pilots did not have that luxury, their only chance to train against Mirage F1s being in cases of international NATO exercises or in joint exercises with some Arab nations' Air forces. Mock dogfights in a controlled environment certainly cannot prepare you for a real situation.

This is why Mirage F1s stayed in service for so long even after the introduction of superior Turkish F-16s in the Aegean. They were withdrawn from service in 2004.
f-16 generation 4; mirage f1 generation 3 so it does not make sense
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basher54321

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Unread post12 Jul 2015, 16:09

wil59 wrote: f-16 generation 4; mirage f1 generation 3 so it does not make sense


Well yes comparing the 2 aircraft the Mirage F.1 is a poor fighter compared to the F-16 - but described above is a 2v1 engagement NOT a 1v1.

A 2v1 is totally different to 1v1 - if the 2 ship are missile armed and play it tactically sound they should have the advantage and can negate any advantages the 1 has. This situation is still dependent on pilots and training though - NOT the airframe (also implied above).

If any of the above actually happened the Turkish pilot made a terrible mistake merging with 2 missile armed fighters - his best chance was to take one out pre merge - or just keep going and disengage.
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mtrman

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Unread post12 Jul 2015, 16:31

Dear Basher,

The incident involving the crash of one Turkish F-16 was due to the mis-selected fuel source switch. That caused the trapped fuel in the drop tanks but no internal fuel. So it crashed due to the flamed out engine. Yes, the heat of the dogfight contributed a lot to the mishap pilot's that error, but this was not a shoot down and nothing related with the aircraft types involved.

Regards.

EDIT: I have removed my comment regarding the incident in 1996 since I couldn't verify all of the claims...
Last edited by mtrman on 12 Jul 2015, 23:34, edited 2 times in total.
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basher54321

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Unread post12 Jul 2015, 16:59

mtrman wrote:Dear Basher,

The incident involving the crash of one Turkish F-16 was due to the mis-selected fuel source switch. That caused the trapped fuel in the drop tanks but no internal fuel. So it crashed due to the flamed out engine. Yes, the heat of the dogfight contributed a lot to the mishap pilot's that error, but this was not a shoot down and nothing related with the aircraft types involved.

Regarding the "real shoot down" incident (in 1996), the facts are as below;

.................



Can you post a source for this specific information please?
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