F-16A vs Mirage2000 and Mig-21 bis

pafpilot · by **pafpilot** » 11 Sep 2005, 16:03

Hi guys!

I was just searching and found the following link
http://p200.ezboard.com/findianmilitary ... D=13.topic
Sorry to say

but the indians have totally outclassed the F-16 and say it doesnt even match the mirage and the mig-21bis
Want your opinions
Thanks
Umar

agilefalcon16 · by **agilefalcon16** » 11 Sep 2005, 16:41

Those guys on that link are complete idiots, how can you compare a Mirage 2000 with BVR missiles against an F-16 that has none? I bet they know very well they're Mir-2000's and Migs wouldn't stand even a remote chance against a Viper in a clean fight, so they wanted to compare the 2 (upgraded of course) against a handicapped Viper just to make themselves feel better. :evil:

My

boff180 · by **boff180** » 11 Sep 2005, 22:35

Erm well I know its never officially been confirmed however there have been "off the record" confirmations. This of an incident that occured on 8th October 1996 where a HAF M2000 shot down a Turkish F-16D (91-0023).

Before saying the F-16 can cream the M2000... I suggest you actually read this websites report on the incident.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_fighting_falco ... -3371.html

There is a photo kicking about the web of the pilot being taken to hospital.

Also on a side note, there is reports in one book written about the Mig-23 that one during the Afganistan conflict of 1987, shot down a Pakistani F-16; other sources however state that the "kill" is actually attributed to another F-16 and was "accidental". (Also have evidence of a Mig-23 shooting down an Italian Tornado during ODS and also a Mig-25PD shooting down an F-18C AA-403/BuNo.163484).

Andy

p.s. However I do agree that an F-16 can pretty easily beat a Mig-21.
p.p.s It also puts pay to LM's marketing claims that the F-16 has a 0 loss combat records as being complete BS.

pafpilot · by **pafpilot** » 12 Sep 2005, 15:58

I agree with both fo you, they just think Viper is nothing compared to M2000 and Mig-21 bis . I am quite sure that Viper can easily take-out both of them in a close dogfight (esp the M2000, because of its slow turnning)

TMor · by **TMor** » 25 Sep 2005, 16:38

Seems that pafpilot red what someone else posted about F-16 vs M2000 in Hellenistic Air Force (especially in dogfight)...

Kovamaniac wrote:As far as the M2000 vs F-16 comparison is concerned, I should add something totally practical which comes from daily usage of both types in HAF. What I want to say is generally that when a HAF M2000 wants to engage a Viper, it leads the Viper at low altitude where the M2000 connot be beaten in any way.I haven't seen yet any aircraft-apart from Su-27 family,which is, for me, the best aircraft ever built-that can achieve "Kill Hour" on a M2000 below 6-7,000 ft no matter the aspect between them. Ok? I have nothing else to add,as Fantasma337 -ask him about F-4E, I think no one else knows more about this aircraft- and the other Greek friends covered me and gave you a very clear picture about the M2000.

PS: I should mention that this is not a thread talking about HAF and TuAF or Greeks' and Turks' politics.

Yes, M2000 turns slower, but its instantaneous turn rate is better, and its incredible pitch rate allow it to take the edge at the begining of the fight ! French pilots (and Greeks) know it and they do their best to get the edge at the begining. If they fail, they loose. But they rarely fail.

Fighting-Falcon · by **Fighting-Falcon** » 25 Sep 2005, 22:11

F-16A can easily beat an MiG-21 Bis and Mirage. I have heard from a PAF F-16 pilot and he said that Mirage3/5 doesn`t even come any near to F-16A. I bet F-16A can beat Mirage 2000.

Angels225 · by **Angels225** » 27 Sep 2005, 10:22

Err... the Mirage 3 and 5 are a bout 30 yrs older than the 2000... they also do not have fly by wire systems..the M2K has been refined aerodynamically and is a very different machine than the 3 or 5 series..
From my point of view the aircraft are very evenly matched..
The Mig-21bis of the IAF which Pafpilot refferes to has an advantage in the HMS/AA-11 combo... also its kopyo allows it to fire the RV-77.. and presently the PAF vipers dont have anything that matches it...
Maybe after the MLU's and the US letting go of some AIm-120B's.. can this be called a fair fight...
though the scnaerio which pafpilot referes to is reminicent of Cope India.. the results were not reflective of USAF vs IAF.. but IAF vs PAF.. in a present day scenario..

boff180 · by **boff180** » 27 Sep 2005, 10:34

I love how some people go "F-16 will beat anything, including the M2000 easily" after they have been presented with an actual combat scenario where the F-16 was beaten and blown out the sky by an M2000 :/

EriktheF16462 · by **EriktheF16462** » 27 Sep 2005, 12:56

Name one true combat engagement were either plain took down a Viper. I did not think so...

ghostrider883 · by **ghostrider883** » 28 Sep 2005, 08:07

Its pretty easy to say the the F-16 can beat a MiG-21 or a M2000. The sad part is that it can only be proven in actual combat situation and not in some friendly dogfights or on the forums.
Inthe 1965 Indo-Pak war, the PAF F-104 was considered invincible yet it was shot down by a IAF Mystere. Similary an IAF MiG-21 was shot down by a PAF F-86 in the 1971 war. On paper, both supersonic fighters would have made mincemeat out of their repective subsonic opponents but in combat, exactly opposite happened.

boff180 · by **boff180** » 28 Sep 2005, 09:51

EriktheF16462 wrote:Name one true combat engagement were either plain took down a Viper. I did not think so...

Depends what you personally class combat as....

If you class combat as a dogfight engagement including the firing of a weapon such as a missile resulting in an aircraft being damaged or destroyed....

Then yes I can!!

Fighting-Falcon · by **Fighting-Falcon** » 05 Oct 2005, 15:30

I can only say that when a Viper will meet an Mirage 2000 in dog fight, the Viper will easily win because of maneaverbility and the Mirage has a slow turning rate as well.

kubam4a1 · by **kubam4a1** » 01 Nov 2005, 10:35

I do not know how would be in dog fight, both (M2000 and F16A) are very manevrouable.
I think that it depends if M2000 carries only old MATRA MAGIC (sth similar to AIM-9D)?
But, if it carries Magic-2 (sth alike to AIM-9L), I don't know.
BVR M2000 wins because of better radar and Super-530 (sth similar to AIM-7F) used.
Fishbed can beat viper if F16 carries AIM-9P
Greetings

elp · by **elp** » 01 Nov 2005, 15:53

If Gums is flyin the model A. The enemy are all dead. :lol:

blain2 · by **blain2** » 03 Dec 2005, 04:10

boff180 wrote:Also on a side note, there is reports in one book written about the Mig-23 that one during the Afganistan conflict of 1987, shot down a Pakistani F-16; other sources however state that the "kill" is actually attributed to another F-16 and was "accidental". (Also have evidence of a Mig-23 shooting down an Italian Tornado during ODS and also a Mig-25PD shooting down an F-18C AA-403/BuNo.163484).

Andy

p.s. However I do agree that an F-16 can pretty easily beat a Mig-21.
p.p.s It also puts pay to LM's marketing claims that the F-16 has a 0 loss combat records as being complete BS.

Complete horse sh*t. The Soviet Mig-23s were totally outclassed by the PAF F-16s during the Afghan war. During one sortie, 2 Mig-23s were shot down by one PAF Viper pilot (both kills confirmed). The own kill was verified not only by the PAF but by the USAF and the LM teams who actually went over the wreckage of the "own goal" that landed in the Pakistani territory. There is a rather unusual but complete coverage in the official PAF history of this incident.