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Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2005, 04:46
by allenperos
Roscoe wrote:But any half-way smart SIX driver will simply light the blower, point to FL550, and make like a homesick angel. Viper would never catch him...

NO $$$$ Roscoe, very well put! When did these square off anyway, probably the 125th FIG and 56th TTW, Jax FANG and MacDill in the mid 80's?

Re: F-106 Delta Dart versus F-16 Viper

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2006, 21:54
by SixShooter
thunderbolt89 wrote:If a top notch pilot were to fly an F-106 against an F-16 with an average pilot, do you think the 106 would stand a chance?

After all it is the "1954 ultimate interceptor" 8)

Hello everyone,

I'm new here and this is my first post. I am a lifelong fan of the Dart (I spent my childhood summers watching the Dart fly over Eglin and Tyndall AFB) but despite my loyalty to the Six, there is simply no way short of shooting the Genie that a 106 could even hope to make it to visual range with a Falcon / Viper.

The F-106 was (as everyone here knows) designed for a different era of air combat and was developed as a bomber interceptor, not a dogfighter. Everything then was "zoom and boom" and many fighters of the day (including the Six) didn't even come with a cannon (though the Dart was later retro-fitted with a 20mm in place of the AIR-2 Genie).

Now if we want to talk about the Dart against early marks of the F-4 or Mirage III or MiG21 it would likely better a better outcome for the F-106. There was in fact a flyoff between the F-106 and the F-4 by the USAF in the early 1960's which partly led to the F-4 being adopted instead of more F-106's being built. The Dart easily won in visual engagements (at mid to high altitudes) but the stronger radar and wider array of weapons for the Phantom were too good to pass on (I've always wondered why the Dart was not retro-fitted for Sidewinder or even Sparrow, the weapons bay was certainly big enough).

The F-4 always had a better radar (APG vs Hughes MA-1) hence better search range, the early Sidewinders (and Atols) were not that much better then the AIM4 Falcons carried by the Dart (E/F as I recall).

Oh yeah, someone else here asked about the Dart being sold to other countries? Well, it never was but Convair did try to market the F-106 to both Canada and Germany (I have a picture of a Dart in "German markings" done for an evaluation by the Luftwaffe). The US did offer the Dart as a possible alternative to the CF-105 Arrow but Canada was not interested (although why they chose the CF-101 later on will forever be beyond me).

You talk to any pilot that flew the Dart and they will speak fondly of the old girl but I don't think anyone will suggest a Dart can beat an F-16.

Anyway, thanks for posting this topic!


Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2006, 13:12
by Darkwand
The Belgians took their time getting All Aspect Sidewinders though.

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2006, 18:45
by dartphantomviperpuke
I flew both, and there really is no comparison item by item with the exception of altitude (I could "turn" a "6" at 50,000 ft...never tried in a viper.)
BVR, the AMRAAM would've found the mark (and the viper turned tail) before the Genie was launched. But the "6" was my first fighter, and will forever own my heart.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2006, 00:19
by Roscoe
We tried taking B-model Viper to altitude chasing the B-2...more often than not the ECS dumped long before anything approaching FL500. Also made it to about 48,000 in a T-38 but we passed through the wake turbulence of a U-2, our engines rolled back, and we lost about 15,000 feet in the recovery.

On the other hand, at Tyndall I got a chance to ride shotgun in a Dart and we were at 51,000 or so doing Mach 1.5 and weaving...kinda...showing me that we had some extra lifties left and therefore significant more altitude available to us.

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2006, 03:29
by TC
Roscoe wrote:we had some extra lifties left and therefore significant more altitude available to us.

I can second that Roscoe. I know a guy who flew the 106 in a pressure suit. I don't know how far over FL500 he was, but it was high enough for long enough to require wearing a pressure suit. If you flew a QF at Tyndall, it might even be the same guy. Who was your pilot?

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2006, 14:19
by dartphantomviperpuke
Pressure suite were/are a political limit over FL 500. We had taped instruments, and one guy boasted he "ran out of tape @ FL780"...said the re-entry was tough.
When I was at the schoolhouse (Tyndall) there was a guy who jumped out of the A/C, waited for a shrimp boat to come buy and almost drown due to the pressure suit filling up w/ gulf water.

"..the ECS dumped.."

Due to NESR(?) arcing, smoke in the c/p, I ram dumped the cabin just north of Cheyenne, whilst trying to get above t-storms, about FL480....not a fun night.

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2006, 14:12
by Roscoe
TC wrote:I know a guy who flew the 106 in a pressure suit. I don't know how far over FL500 he was, but it was high enough for long enough to require wearing a pressure suit. If you flew a QF at Tyndall, it might even be the same guy. Who was your pilot?

Don't remember but unlikely. I was flying in a QF conversion, and they did not fly with pressure suits. Not sure how we got over 50K without them (required by regulation), but maybe they were waived for the drones.

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2006, 01:48
by TC
Oh, sorry...should clearify here. The fella that I know who did this, had flown many years in the Six, including some time in flight test. It was in that capacity that he flew with a pressure suit. It was only after he retired and became a contract pilot that he joined the FSAT program.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2006, 13:50
by Roscoe
Then I may have flown with him. Been too long to remember names however...

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2006, 18:20
by Raptor_One
Can someone here explain what the specific dangers are of going above 50,000 ft (or thereabouts) in a late model Viper, F-15C, F-22, or whatever? I haven't studied the F-16 -1 (the ones you can find on the net) very well so I don't know exactly how the pressurization system works, but I understand that enough bleed air from the engine(s) is needed to keep the cockpit pressurized. I know that the pressure in the cockpit under "normal" conditions decreases with altitude. If you have an engine blowout at high altitude, how quickly will the pressure drop in the cockpit to unsafe levels, even with oxygen masks? I'm being a little lazy here as I could probably find this information out on my own, so feel free to chastise me. :D

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2006, 05:16
by Roscoe
At altitudes above 50,000, the air pressure is so low that physiological injury can occur. Should the cockpit pressurization fail or an ejection be required at those altitudes, the suit provides the necessary pressure environment. It has a pressure already (fairly low), but since it is less than that of the cockpit (or equal??) it appears "uninflated", but with a rapid decompression the pressure on the outside goes so low that the suit increase in air or pressure, just a larger difference with the outside.

At Edwards I was selected to be a guinea pig for new life support troops being trained in the use of pressure suits (The SR-71 was still in service at NASA and they needed to have the capability). Got a ride in the chamber at altitudes simulating 10 miles where I experienced a rapid decompression. Went from "Mr Floppy" to "Michelin Man" in a fraction of a second. Pretty cool actually.

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2006, 06:09
by Raptor_One
Interesting. Thanks for answering. But now I'm curious... if no injury happened to you when you became "Michelin Man", where does the danger from cockpit depressurization come from in the real jet? Just the inability to maintain control of your jet because your suit is blown up like a balloon? Or would that inflation effect actually be so extreme that when trapped in a small cockpit you might get suffocated or otherwise rendered unconcious/injured? When you experienced the rapid decompression, were you seated in something approximating a fighter-sized cockpit? Regardless of your initial position, what did the inflation of the suit do to your ability to move your limbs, breath, etc. I assume it wasn't that bad since you thought it was pretty cool. :D

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2006, 07:29
by parrothead

The danger at that high of an altitude comes with the air pressure being so low that you get the "bends" just like a scuba diver as the dissolved gases in your blood form into bubbles and cause massive pain and possible death :shock: .

The suit has the same pressure inside it all the time. When in the pressurized cockpit, it doesn't look inflated only because the cockpit has the same pressure as the inside of the suit. Remove the pressure on the outside of the suit and now it looks inflated - think of taking a bag of chips from sea level to 8,000 or 10,000 feet. The bag looks fairly "flat" or non pressurized at sea level, but looks like it's been pressurized at altitude :wink: .

The danger comes from not having the suit and suffering the consequences. Even with the suit "inflated" due to low outside air pressure, you're still alive, conscious, and functional enough to control the jet. It may be more difficult to move, but not nearly impossible :wink: .

Here's some good links for some interesting info on the full pressure suits worn by the pilots flying the A-12, M-21, YF-12A, SR-71, U-2, and some Space Shuttle missions :) . ... clark.html

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2006, 18:39
by TC
Typically, you don't see fighters flying over FL500 either. Most drivers, outside of flight test, that I know have only gone to 50K, because they were not wearing pressure suits.

The Streak Eagle pilots all wore pressure suits. That d@mn thing screamed through FL500 like it was nobody's business! :shock:

The Six could easily exceed FL500. Head to head, this is where it would've had an advantage. IIRC, the F-16 lacks provisions for the wear of pressure suits, or at least the operational variants do. Roscoe would know about the flight test birds, but I believe they also lack the necessary pressure suit connections.

Pounded Too Many Beers Last Night. Time to Find Some MiGs!