F-16C, F-16E vs F-14D

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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35_aoa

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Unread post08 Jan 2016, 07:45

eloise wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
eloise wrote:there probably some others factor too , Mig-23 , mig-21bis with superior T/W in theory should be able to defeat F-16 , F-15 by going vertical , but in reality they seem to lose horribly


uhh neither of those aircraft have a T/W over 1, how are they going to beat the F-16 and F-15 in the vertical?

at high speed dynamic thrust of Mig-23 is better due to engine design and variable inlet ,
mig-21 have something called Emergency Afterburner :mrgreen:


the 200/220 motors also have "max power"…..its a little switch below the throttle. IIRC it lets the motor burn about 20 deg C hotter than normally rated continuously. Similar in theory to "Emergency Afterburner". Doesn't really make a difference…..nobody is getting into a turning BFM fight at those speeds. If you tried, you would be arcing into east jesus while the other guy saddled in behind you. The MIG-23 is one of the worst "fighters" to ever be built. -21 had some game 40 years ago against a bunch of poorly outfitted F-4's that were flown by guys who didn't understand the fight the Fishbed was baiting them into. I give some respect to modern variants of the Flanker family, but there isn't much else out there that can hang with a 4G+ western jet of any type/model/series
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Unread post08 Jan 2016, 17:21

35_aoa wrote:
the 200/220 motors also have "max power"…..its a little switch below the throttle. IIRC it lets the motor burn about 20 deg C hotter than normally rated continuously. Similar in theory to "Emergency Afterburner". Doesn't really make a difference…..nobody is getting into a turning BFM fight at those speeds. If you tried, you would be arcing into east jesus while the other guy saddled in behind you. The MIG-23 is one of the worst "fighters" to ever be built. -21 had some game 40 years ago against a bunch of poorly outfitted F-4's that were flown by guys who didn't understand the fight the Fishbed was baiting them into. I give some respect to modern variants of the Flanker family, but there isn't much else out there that can hang with a 4G+ western jet of any type/model/series

Meh...
I've been 9k defensive with a beagle...15 seconds later HCA is 180 / neutral / the radius defense and boom you are offensive. I don't know if an E could hang with any fighter not flown by a retard
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35_aoa

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Unread post09 Jan 2016, 03:59

deadseal wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
the 200/220 motors also have "max power"…..its a little switch below the throttle. IIRC it lets the motor burn about 20 deg C hotter than normally rated continuously. Similar in theory to "Emergency Afterburner". Doesn't really make a difference…..nobody is getting into a turning BFM fight at those speeds. If you tried, you would be arcing into east jesus while the other guy saddled in behind you. The MIG-23 is one of the worst "fighters" to ever be built. -21 had some game 40 years ago against a bunch of poorly outfitted F-4's that were flown by guys who didn't understand the fight the Fishbed was baiting them into. I give some respect to modern variants of the Flanker family, but there isn't much else out there that can hang with a 4G+ western jet of any type/model/series

Meh...
I've been 9k defensive with a beagle...15 seconds later HCA is 180 / neutral / the radius defense and boom you are offensive. I don't know if an E could hang with any fighter not flown by a retard


haha fair. I probably should have thrown out some caveats to my previous bold statement…….Beagle being one of them, or Growler for that matter. And to be clear, I'm also not considering the guy at the controls. A MIG-21 or -23 could still smoke a guy who doesn't know what he is doing; same reason we lost so many F-4's to seemingly "lesser" MIG-15/17/21 in NVN. So there are of course a lot of variables in this discussion. Radius defense also works pretty well against a Hornet that doesn't understand what you are doing. "See you on the deck when I have one million knots"
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Unread post09 Jan 2016, 04:42

35_aoa wrote: Radius defense also works pretty well against a Hornet that doesn't understand what you are doing. "See you on the deck when I have one million knots"

What is radius defense?
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basher54321

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Unread post09 Jan 2016, 13:31

deadseal wrote:Meh...
I've been 9k defensive with a beagle...15 seconds later HCA is 180 / neutral / the radius defense and boom you are offensive. I don't know if an E could hang with any fighter not flown by a retard



:D
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eloise

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Unread post10 Jan 2016, 02:06

geforcerfx wrote: The Mig-21 CSR mode could only be used below 13,000 feet and for less than 1 min in a dog fight, and had a chance of blowing up the engine.


The emergency afterburner of mig-21 seem to increase the power alot thought , in war time use they can be used for 3 minutes
the most dramatic WEP feature was found in the MiG-21bis fighter jet. This late variant of the standard Soviet light fighter plane was built as a stopgap measure to counter the newer and more powerful American F-16 and F/A-18 fighters until the next-generation MiG-29 could be introduced to service.

The MiG-21bis received the upgraded Tumanski R-25 engine, which retained the standard 42 / 65 kN normal and forsazh power settings of earlier R-13 powerplants, but added a new super-afterburning system. Use of this "diamond regime" provided a massive 97.4 kN of thrust for no more than 3 minutes in actual wartime use. Use of this temporary power gave the MiG-21bis slightly better than 1:1 thrust-to-weight ratio and a climbing rate of 254 meters/second, equalling the F-16's nominal capabilities in close-quarters dogfight.

In air combat practice with the MiG-21bis, use of WEP thrust was limited to 1 minute, to spare on the engines' 800 flight hours lifetime
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basher54321

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Unread post10 Jan 2016, 13:15

eloise wrote:
The emergency afterburner of mig-21 seem to increase the power alot thought , in war time use they can be used for 3 minutes


Yes 3 mins is quoted in other sources - and an uprated thrust figure is given although difficult to tell what that really represents. (Yefim lists a contingency rating of 15,750 lbs then states some sources list contingency at 20,940 lbs)

The bis was supposedly optimised for low level dogfights and stressed to 8.5G - but was less agile than earlier versions according to pilots. Obviously the guy above doesn't know about the F-16A emergency AB power and incorrectly assumes that somehow with an equal T/W on paper it is similar in BFM. :doh:


Then I remembered I had a MiG-21Bis manual in English and all becomes clearer perhaps.

mig21bis.JPG


Static Mil thrust rating = 4100 kgf
Static Max reheat/AB thrust rating = 6850 kgf
Static Emergency thrust rating = 7100 kgf
Emergency thrust in flight at M1.0 near SL = 9900kgf


So the 21,000 lbs thrust figure is for an installed R-25-300 at M1 in flight (temperature unknown)

For comparison the charts estimate the F100-PW-200 puts out ~27,000lbs at M1 (Sea Level / Std Day temp)
Last edited by basher54321 on 11 Jan 2016, 01:53, edited 4 times in total.
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JetTest

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Unread post10 Jan 2016, 13:29

F100=VMax, not sure if the F110 has a similar function, and if so, the name.
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basher54321

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Unread post10 Jan 2016, 15:55

Added to above post
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f-16adf

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Unread post20 Dec 2016, 15:56

It depends on what F-16C you are talking about. The Chart you show for 10k is for a Block 50. The Block 50 is far heavier than the Block 30. The big mouth Block 30 has a better instantaneous/sustained turn rate and smaller turn radius (since it is lighter) than the Block 50. Even the original F-16A has a smaller TURN RADIUS than the Block 50. The F-14A/B/D will give you a pretty good turn at around 300-325 KIAS (depending on altitude). However once you put more knots on the jet (go beyond corner velocity); the turn rate and radius suffer. And as the wings start to go back its maneuverability starts to decrease. I tried to post the charts, I do not know if it went through. However, you can find many of them with just a google search.

The F-14 is a nice jet, but some people wrongly think that it is the greatest ever created (probably from watching too much of Top Gun). And I think I know the site that you are talking about. Ironically, every chart they show is for comparing the heaviest bloated F-16C (in this case the Block 50) to the best F-14 viariant (in this case the B). Even if you look at the NAVAIR F-14B "G" chart, it is set at 6.5 @ 50,000lbs. This whole F-14B/D 9G thing is rubbish. The F-14 probably could venture into the 9-10G area instantaneously (since it has no limiter), but in NO WAY sustain it (look at how the P's decrease). I mean, there have even been occasions when F-4's back in Vietnam instantaneously pulled 9-10G in order to get the pilots out of dangerous situations. But every knows that an F-4 CANNOT SUSTAIN 9G.

The best turn rate (from watching youtube airshow demos) for a Viper that I have seen so far is from Solo Turk's Block 40 demos from 2011. Their jet usually completes the 360 turn in 15-16 seconds. The best F-14 demo video that I have seen shows the jet completing the turn in around 19.8-20.5 seconds (this video is from the mid 1980's when the jets were relatively new). And I have NEVER seen a F-14B/D video showing the jet completing the turn in under 21 seconds. But then again, he may have not been max performing the jet due to the aging airframes. However, he still is far and away from Solo Turk's time.

People tend to forget one thing, the F-14 with the wings forward at 20-22 degrees is a high aspect ratio jet (the wings are nearly straight). That is why is turns pretty good at low speeds. Ironically, the A-10 has a high aspect ratio wing, and at 270-300 KIAS can out radius any of the teen series fighters. But as an A-10 pilot once told me, who wants to be turning and bleeding airspeed at 270 KIAS in a dogfight?
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saberrider

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Unread post23 Dec 2016, 19:54

f-16adf wrote:

The F-14 is a nice jet, but some people wrongly think that it is the greatest ever created (probably from watching too much of Top Gun). And I think I know the site that you are talking about. Ironically, every chart they show is for comparing the heaviest bloated F-16C (in this case the Block 50) to the best F-14 viariant (in this case the B). Even if you look at the NAVAIR F-14B "G" chart, it is set at 6.5 @ 50,000lbs. This whole F-14B/D 9G thing is rubbish. The F-14 probably could venture into the 9-10G area instantaneously (since it has no limiter), but in NO WAY sustain it
This video is for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUCixAeZ0A
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Jan 2017, 17:35

Can't add much to this other than I love all these birds :)
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garrya

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Unread post18 Aug 2017, 08:08

Due to recent discussion in ED, i just look at this thread again and found this, F-14 L/D ratio at various wing sweep and indicate Mach number.
Image
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Last edited by garrya on 18 Aug 2017, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.
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MVSGas

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Unread post18 Aug 2017, 08:17

lol, Is Hummingbird on here also? You guys have been arguing this for around a year now, right?
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garrya

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Unread post18 Aug 2017, 10:13

MVSGas wrote:lol, Is Hummingbird on here also? You guys have been arguing this for around a year now, right?

I don't think he is here, but yes he is on Eagle.ru forum. Anyway, the charts are just for the next person who interested in F-14.
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