F-16 vs F/A-18

[quicksilver]

...you can't put "charts" into real world performance, there are just two many factors involved.

^^
This.

I am reminded of the movie 'Sully' and the moments in the story where he made his case for reality -- against an analysis and circumstantial modeling devoid of the human factors that determined 'outcome.'

[tailgate]

I guess what i am saying.......is in the "real" fight, I am not worried about ITR,STR, and what charts say about when,where, and how and at what AoA is this and that......

I am going to get everything out of the jet that she will give me and I'm not worries about G meters and stress and that stuff......to get that first shot on the bad guy..............if I survive.......I'll read those charts and specifications in the stall.......just sayin

[gta4]

To tailgate:
How do you describe a 229 powered F15e (no cft) in dogfight? both in It and against it.

I know It has pretty good performance on paper, but I would like To know How those theoretical number translates into real life combat. It would be appreciated if you can share us How It performs against non-us jets, such as flanker, fulcrum and typhoon.

[zero-one]

That is incorrect. I was misreading CG location as Static Margin. It clearly states in a paragraph that the CFTs reduce stability and increase pitch sensitivity. Weight is the Mudhens enemy, and it has a lot of it.

does this mean that if weight and configuration between the C and E models are exactly the same, the E should be the better performer due to the 229 motors?

[tailgate]

To tailgate:
How do you describe a 229 powered F15e (no cft) in dogfight? both in It and against it.

I know It has pretty good performance on paper, but I would like To know How those theoretical number translates into real life combat. It would be appreciated if you can share us How It performs against non-us jets, such as flanker, fulcrum and typhoon.

First, I have never flown the Echo, only Charlie and Delta’s............ don’t forget it’s primary mission is Strike, so it will probably avoid close combat if it can. But it has the same caps in bvr.

Second, CFT’s come standard equip on Echos, you probably will very rarely see one without, except for maybe depot or checkout flight ( phase, QA, that kind of thing) so it’s always going to weight more than it’s brethren and the -229 offsets that growth I’m sure

Fighting against it will probably be the same bvr wise, up close not sure, I can say with some certainty that I’ve never flown against a Echo other than bvr.......so cant say to it’s performance. Logically, considering weight and aerodynamics, I’d say it gives a little in that respect.........but you still expect Eagle like numbers.........

[zero-one]

Hi Tailgate, was wondering if you saw my post the other day. How do you fight an Eagle when you're in the Raptor?
Do you out Eagle an Eagle in its own game by going vertical?

Reason I ask is, I know pilots like to exploit the weakness of their opponents, so going vertical against an Eagle seems like a gamble, even if you're on a Raptor.

On the other hand, I know you don't like to go slow as that would be suicide by your books, so doing post stall and using TVC might be out of the question.

do you stay flat and fight like a Viper? Does the Raptor match the Viper in the horizontal fight?

[mixelflick]

I would guess the F-22 pilot has lots of options, including going vertical on an Eagle. There was one report here where and F-22 driver was accelerating going straight up and caught it just before breaking the sound barrier. So out Eagling an Eagle sounds plenty plausible.

With respect to the F-16 in the horizontal, not sure. What is clear is that there was an exercise where 3 or 4 aggressor F-16's with HOBS missiles went head to head with 1 F-22 and... got waxed. I would imagine in most scenarios the F-22 wouldn't engage in twisting and turning, classical dogfights. Just target them at the far end of WVR, shoot before being seen and boom - bye bye bandit..

[tailgate]

I cannot go into some maneuvers.....oh well......but the energy fight is key here. I’m going bvr no doubt. But if it came to wvr, high energy fighting is the word here, high. I’ve got loads to burn here and the advantage goes to me. The inability to target is also key, but don’t bet on that card very long.........lol. And then hope to survive to tell another story........



Edit, it said “ high energy prices” .....lol

[zero-one]

I cannot go into some maneuvers.....oh well......but the energy fight is key here. I’m going bvr no doubt. But if it came to wvr, high energy fighting is the word here, high. I’ve got loads to burn here and the advantage goes to me. The inability to target is also key, but don’t bet on that card very long.........lol. And then hope to survive to tell another story........



Edit, it said “ high energy prices” .....lol

Wow, the way I'm reading this, is you're basically out fighting the F-15 and F-16 in their own games. I didn't expect that. I always hear from Hornet pilots that they would force the Viper to go slow, i think you or another Eagle pilot also said that an Eagle would try to go slow against a Viper and turn it into a vertical fight where the Eagle holds the advantage.

But If I'm getting this correctly, the Raptor has so much energy that it can out Eagle and Eagle in the vertical and out Viper the Viper in the horizontal.

If you don't mind, which one was the tougher challange when you get to the merge?
The Eagle with its better ACM trained pilots and superior vertical performance, or the Viper which is harder to see and bounces around in the sky, not to mention has more energy than the Eagle.

[tailgate]

I think this has been said, but here goes.....no energy and no speed are a fighter pilots nightmare.....yes you might kill your target but his wingman going to thinks it’s his birthday......rarely if ever will you see a 1 vs 1. I fought allot of hornets in my time and they are not getting me slow.......

With the Viper, I don’t care what any book says, aside from DFLCS limits, you get in a phone booth fight with him and he will get inside your circle and get a heater up your butt or get a gun on you......period.

With the Eagle, you have to do vertical maneuvering to take advantage of your power and maybe a little TVC......

But after all this is all theoretical, because once the real fight starts it’s may the best man win......I hope every time it’s me.....lol

[zero-one]

I fought allot of hornets in my time and they are not getting me slow.......

I see, but If this is the case, how do Hornet pilots fight? (perhaps 35_AOA can shed some light on this). they certainly won't try to go vertical, a high energy fight makes them meat on the table for pure bread stallions like the Eagle, Viper, Mig-29 and Flanker

With the Viper, I don’t care what any book says, aside from DFLCS limits, you get in a phone booth fight with him and he will get inside your circle and get a heater up your butt or get a gun on you......period.

How does the Raptor compare to an A-A or very lightly configured Viper, is it close or does the Viper still hold a commanding lead in this area.

With the Eagle, you have to do vertical maneuvering to take advantage of your power and maybe a little TVC......

Wouldn't this be playing to his strengths? but I guess if you can out play him in his game, it will be easier for you than to force him to play another game. I'm thinking going vertical with an Eagle is a good tactic because he is already going to do that. is this correct?

as ususal, great stuff tailgate, and thenkyou

[rheonomic]

CFTs were designed to maintain the same handling qualities as without them and to minimize the performance impact.

I always take that claim with a pinch of salt. Every Mudhen driver I have spoken to says that their airframe is significantly draggier compared to a clean F-15C and there is not chance they can turn and burn with a Eagle. Or maybe this problem is only specific to the F-15 CFT.

I'm only talking in regard to the Blk 60 Viper here, don't know about the Mudhen.

Regardless, "minimize the performance impact" does not mean there is no performance impact; only that the CFT OMLs were chosen as the OML that minimized the impact compared to space of possible OMLs. (See e.g. AIAA 2000-4522...)

[35_aoa]

I see, but If this is the case, how do Hornet pilots fight? (perhaps 35_AOA can shed some light on this). they certainly won't try to go vertical, a high energy fight makes them meat on the table for pure bread stallions like the Eagle, Viper, Mig-29 and Flanker

You'd be surprised how quickly a couple mistakes from a higher TW fighter can shift a fight away from E-M diagram analyses and paper credentials. All the energy addition and ability in the vertical mean very little if you don't understand or can't execute the basics of BFM properly from the first merge. My point is that we fight BFM just like anyone else.....there is no magic formula for the Hornet, just like there is no such thing for the Eagle/Viper. If it makes sense for me to go 2 circle/energy, I will....if it makes sense for me to go into the vertical, I will. It's all about the man in the other "box", and what they allow (or prevent) you from doing.

[rheonomic]

You'd be surprised how quickly a couple mistakes from a higher TW fighter can shift a fight away from E-M diagram analyses and paper credentials.

"Never trust anyone who would rather kick your a$$ with a slide rule than with a jet."

[saberrider]

No, you're confusing pitch rate with turn rate, there'in lies your problem.

For the F-15 to achieve max pitch rate most of its lifting surfaces will already be stalled, i.e. beyond CLmax, at which point it won't actually be going in the direction its pointing. This is known as the nose pointing authority of the aircraft, and it is not connected with the actual turn rate.

So, pitch rate is when the nose is pointing inside the turn more, in level flight and the a/c skid and sink by inertia trying to turn sharply,right?