F-16 vs F/A-18

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 14:30

gta4 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:With (2) AIM-9 and (2) AIM-120 and 60% fuel the -402 Hornet has a best sustained turn rate or 19.2 at sea level and 12.3 at 15,000ft. The HAF with no CFT under same conditions is 18.5 and 12.63.


It's not the same condition. HAF F-16's loadout drag index = 50 which equals 6+ AMRAAMs + pylongs. Hornet's loadout has a drag index of only 17-20.


I was looking at a note I had written down years ago, so lets look at it fresh.

Basic aircraft DI = 7
AIM-9 non-wingtip = 5 (two for 10)
AIM-9 Launcher and adapter = 6 (two for 12)
So we are looking at DI = 29 (so for a "just for me" quick and dirty analysis I MAY have used DI 50 to save time last time)

Basic aircraft weight = 20,200lb
Internal usable fuel = 7,116lb (60% for 4,270lb)
AIM-120 = 341lb (two for 682lb)
AIM-9 = 195lb (two for 390lb)
Launcher and adapter = 98lb (two for 196lb)
Configured weight = 25,738lb

Sea Level: -229 motor
DI 50, 26klb weight, 18.2dps at 0.8M (weight corrected per chart for 25.75klb +.2dps for 18.4dps)
DI 0, 22klb weight, 21.4dps (weight corrected per chart for 25.75klb -3.6dps for 17.8dps at 0.7M, slope from .6 to .7 cover a .8dps increase, so lets bump 17.8 to 18.6dps)

DI = 29 expected result? 18.484

15k: -229 motor
DI 0, 22klb weight, 14.1dps at 0.9M (weight corrected -2dps for 12.1dps)

DI 50 10K, 13.6 corrected to 13.8
DI 50 20K, 9.7 corrected to 9.9
DI 50 15K, expected 11.85

DI 29 expected 11.955dps

So there we have it. Under a rigorous DI and Weight analysis of the -229 motored HAF Block 52 the -402 powered Hornet does indeed beat it. The best Hornet can, under certain circumstances, out Viper the worst Viper.

Out of curiosity DI-50 sea level with -129 reads just a hair over 18.5 and 10 reads 14.2 and 20k reads 10.2 which I would average to 12.2.

I see several ways now I could have arrived at 18.5 for my old estimate, but I don't see how I arrived at 12.63. Maybe I was doing a rigorous with the -129 motor?

Either way, please don't jump to conclusions about the methods I use. If you have a question, ask. I will generally be more than happy to re-run the numbers.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 15:18

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I was looking at a note I had written down years ago, so lets look at it fresh.

Basic aircraft DI = 7
AIM-9 non-wingtip = 5 (two for 10)
AIM-9 Launcher and adapter = 6 (two for 12)
So we are looking at DI = 29 (so for a "just for me" quick and dirty analysis I MAY have used DI 50 to save time last time)


1) The DI in HAF manual refers to "payload drag index" not "total drag index", otherwise how come there are charts for DI=0?

2) The Basic aircraft already includes 2 launchers, so no need to count them twice.

So, the DI for 2 aim9s and 2 aim120 should be 2*0(tip sidewinders) + 2*5(amraams) + 2*6(launchers) = 22

I would agree that the best hornet is very close to the worst viper.
Last edited by gta4 on 15 Feb 2018, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 15:34

I didn't count the launchers twice and wing tip missiles have zero drag index. We can argue semantics over my 29 vs your 30 but either way my calculations stand.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 15:43

tip missiles have no DI? So the total DI should be 22
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 16:21

it is unwise to ignore the fact that it lists a basic aircraft DI. It lists it for a reason.

This isn't even worth fighting over. I provided my methods and my math. If you have a disagreement over what you interpret the DI to be then you can use the numbers I already provided and interpolate your own answer.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 18:22

This begs a higher level question. If the up engined Hornet can beat a CFT shod Viper in sustained turning and the Indians found that the Super Hornet could do the same too and only just lose out to the Typhoon is Hornet's reputation for poor E-M characteristics undeserved ? Is it the fact that it can bleed more energy with a high instantaneous turn followed by high AoA maneouvering the real reason for this reputation, i.e. more tactics than capability ? Just posing the question ...
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 18:52

the report I got the Hornet data from implies the Super Hornet is behind the -402 Hornet. The E model is discussed as having STRs of 18.0 and 11.6, somewhat below the CFT-less HAF Block 52 (which SHOULD be the worst turning F-16 shy of adding CFTs to it) but the difference is fairly academic.

If India was looking at CFT equipped Vipers then I can see the SHornet out STRing them, but I would imagine the F-16 would have more range.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 23:32

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
With (2) AIM-9 and (2) AIM-120 and 60% fuel the -402 Hornet has a best sustained turn rate or 19.2 at sea level and 12.3 at 15,000ft. The HAF with no CFT under same conditions is 18.5 and 12.63.



This is basically identical to the 15,000 ft STR of the F-14D at 12.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67, but with 4x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-7's instead.

PS: F-14D's ITR is 19.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67 and 7.5 G's as well.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 01:44

hummingbird wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
With (2) AIM-9 and (2) AIM-120 and 60% fuel the -402 Hornet has a best sustained turn rate or 19.2 at sea level and 12.3 at 15,000ft. The HAF with no CFT under same conditions is 18.5 and 12.63.



This is basically identical to the 15,000 ft STR of the F-14D at 12.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67, but with 4x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-7's instead.

PS: F-14D's ITR is 19.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67 and 7.5 G's as well.


But that is not with 60% fuel.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 02:57

I remember pretty clear that we compared the 'best tomcat' vs 'worst viper' a while ago.

With 4 aim9 and 4 aim7, Drag index = 48, F14D's peak STR is 14 deg/sec on 10000 feet.

with Drag index =50, F16C's peak STR is 14.2deg/sec at 10000ft.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 03:06

gta4 wrote:
hummingbird wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
With (2) AIM-9 and (2) AIM-120 and 60% fuel the -402 Hornet has a best sustained turn rate or 19.2 at sea level and 12.3 at 15,000ft. The HAF with no CFT under same conditions is 18.5 and 12.63.



This is basically identical to the 15,000 ft STR of the F-14D at 12.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67, but with 4x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-7's instead.

PS: F-14D's ITR is 19.2 deg/sec @ M 0.67 and 7.5 G's as well.


But that is not with 60% fuel.


No it's with 50% fuel, specifically 8,100 lbs pr. engine.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 03:18

gta4 wrote:I remember pretty clear that we compared the 'best tomcat' vs 'worst viper' a while ago.

With 4 aim9 and 4 aim7, Drag index = 48, F14D's peak STR is 14 deg/sec on 10000 feet.

with Drag index =50, F16C's peak STR is 14.2deg/sec at 10000ft.


14.1 deg/sec at a considerably lower speed (M ~0.62), leading to a much smaller sustainable turn radius of 2,770 ft, allowing the F-14 to pull a comfortable lead throughout the turn.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 04:11

Hummingbird, take that back to a Tomcat thread. I've love the F-14 but I'm tired of this argument. This thread is vipers vs hornets and there was a specific question that was answered.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 04:35

hummingbird wrote:Decieve you??! Consider yourself completely ignored henceforth.

As if you have the moral high ground, laughable when a liar pretend like he is in the right.
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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 04:50

gta4 wrote:I remember pretty clear that we compared the 'best tomcat' vs 'worst viper' a while ago.

With 4 aim9 and 4 aim7, Drag index = 48, F14D's peak STR is 14 deg/sec on 10000 feet.

with Drag index =50, F16C's peak STR is 14.2deg/sec at 10000ft.


F-16 has some serious advantage in roll rate and acceleration rate over tomcat and hornet
Image

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:the report I got the Hornet data from implies the Super Hornet is behind the -402 Hornet. The E model is discussed as having STRs of 18.0 and 11.6, somewhat below the CFT-less HAF Block 52 (which SHOULD be the worst turning F-16 shy of adding CFTs to it) but the difference is fairly academic.

Wait a second, does that mean F-16 block 60 actually turn better than F-16 Block 50+ ?
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