F-16 (blk 50/52) versus SU-30MKI - Cope Thunder 3

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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RoAF

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Unread post22 Jul 2006, 13:23

42, I didn't quite understand what you are trying to say. Please explain further.

I was saying that if a Su-30 takes off with a full fuel load, by the time it reaches the "enemy" some of the fuel is consumed, so it's more maneuvrable.
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42

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Unread post22 Jul 2006, 14:41

[url]Also, contrary to western jets Su-30s do not carry external tanks, so you'd expect them not to have a full fuel load when they enter combat.[/url]OK now it's clear.But still,the fact that they can't carry fuel tanks is of no impotance...Fighters that carry them could jettisson them if they need to...In addition,Falcons can even dogfight with full fuel load and A-A loadout<Greek falcons do it everyday,since we are in love with our neighbours from the east>...Su-30 with full fuel load would fight the way astarfighter would...
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danhutmacher

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Unread post26 Jul 2006, 07:36

Has any one noticed that the press hasn't reported on Cope India 2005 when F-16s with AWACs took on the IAF?
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Grounded1971

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Unread post03 Aug 2006, 19:50

danhutmacher wrote:Has any one noticed that the press hasn't reported on Cope India 2005 when F-16s with AWACs took on the IAF?


Some accounts of the event do seem very ill-informed but there was plenty of press coverage:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/nov/17us.htm

(Ok so he can spell AWACS but thinks the F-15 is a Tomcat! Curious).

Other reports make it clear that there were mixed formations:

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=58513

Of course Stars & Stripes refuses to elaborate much on anything:

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true
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danhutmacher

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Unread post04 Aug 2006, 09:18

hey grounded1971 thanks for the links. Judging from the articles I would say that the F-16s did much better than the F-15s in 2004. Although I still have not heard much about the results.
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falcon_sgd

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Unread post12 Jun 2007, 11:23

can anybody tell us about the 100%correct results?
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Cad

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Unread post12 Jun 2007, 23:27

the pilots...
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falcon_sgd

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Unread post13 Jun 2007, 10:29

have SU-30s any combat record or its superiority is just based on fiction?we all know that F-16s have goood record
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Cad

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Unread post15 Jun 2007, 19:24

the best combat record is allways no combat record... :D
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F16wedge

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Unread post25 Dec 2007, 00:29

No USAF block 50's have a V-9 radar or C-7 capability.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post26 Dec 2007, 10:21

...none of wich would make too much of a difference compared to V-5 or C5 anyway. They are basicaly improvements not entirely new hardware.
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Aks_20

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Unread post12 Apr 2008, 22:59

avon1944 wrote:
Aks_20 wrote:IAF has no Micas or even simulated them, Av Leak screwed up

You are incorrect! According to Janes Book of Aircraft 2004/2005 also credits the Indian AF having MICAs for the M-2000. So, the Su-30s had simulated AA-12s and only the F-15s did have SARH missiles -a generic Sparrow Missile.


For crying out loud, Janes is just gassing. I invite you to show me one operational Mica round in the IAF at present. The IAF Mirages have RDM's not RDYs as well.

The USAF practices the usage of its technical advantage in BVR, so limiting them virtually to WVR combat, hurts them badly. The F-15s were the only aircraft to not have HMDS. The Bisons and Su-30MKs also had HMDS. What would you expect the results to be.


Nobody restricted the USAF from employing slammers. It was their hubris which let them down. They came to India expecting a third world AF unable to employ modern BVR tactics and got surprised. Second, the USAF birds also had HMDS per what I remember. They didnt have AESA but their APG-63s were far better than all the IAFs fighter radars - the MKIs didnt take part.

Another thing that was stated in another AW&ST article was that after the exercise explained in the 10/04/04, there were exchange rides. The USAF spokesperson stated the USAF piloted Su-30MKs consistently won against F-15Cs flown by USAF pilots. Now, was this real or some artificial aerial contest, I don't know.


This was a simulation done internally. Doubt whether the USAF got a detailed look at the MKIs performance.

In addition to the USAF spokesperson stating the sucess of the Su-30's, this was echoed by congressman Cunningham discussing the results during a congressional session in the summer of 2004.

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blain2

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Unread post15 May 2008, 21:20

USAF at CI05 did not have JHMCS on the Vipers.

You are right that IAF does not have MICA. They do have Matra Supr530Ds though.

The MKI did take part in some of the DACT missions. This was stated by the USAF F-16 pilot who actually went to CI05. Mods here know that his posts were later on removed due to obvious reasons.
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Aks_20

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Unread post28 Jun 2008, 23:09

blain2 wrote:USAF at CI05 did not have JHMCS on the Vipers.


Again - dont mix up events. The F-15s that came did have JMHCS- which is what I referred to. And the RSAF Vipers that came to India had HMDs as well.

You are right that IAF does not have MICA. They do have Matra Supr530Ds though.


Which is as limited, in fact more so than the Sparrow!

The MKI did take part in some of the DACT missions. This was stated by the USAF F-16 pilot who actually went to CI05. Mods here know that his posts were later on removed due to obvious reasons.


Again, I was referring to Cope 1 and not Cope 2! And in Cope 2, the MKI DACT was window dressing to be honest, it was only WVR, with limited TVC.

But the USAF got a better deal than the Brits did, recently - they got to see almost nothing!! In India though, it was a better exercise- with MKIs in WVR and BVR, though with restricted modes vs Tornado F3s + AWACs.

And the RSAF got the most thorough workover - good experience to learn from about the MKMs- no doubt played a serious role in their decision to go for heavy fighters and not more F-16s with the F-15SG.

Ten engagements vs the MKIs BVR & WVR - the Vipers lost each one. But to the RSAFs credit, they ran even with the MiG-29s (though the MiGs in IAF service are non upgraded vs the latest available & only now has an upgrade deal been signed) and they did quite well against the Bisons, in fact winning the bulk of the duels.

While the IAF was justifiably happy about the MKI performance, they were perplexed about why the Bisons- which did well in CI-1 & CI-2 against F-15s and Vipers, didnt do equally well vs the RSAF.
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avon1944

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Unread post20 Apr 2009, 03:54

Concerning the comments about the InAF wanted mainly WVR engagements, I recently read that the InAF wanted the 12:4/3:1 odds in air combat because they felt these are the sort of numbers they would see in a conflict with Pakistan!
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