F-16 (blk 50/52) versus SU-30MKI - Cope Thunder 3

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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2sBlind

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Unread post19 Jul 2005, 23:34

It seems that what I feared was true. The F-15 drivers got cocky and went in with stupid tactics.

Given what the ROE were for the excerise they should have adjusted their tactics accordingly. What's said is that from the articule they are going to blame it on not having the AESA radar and not on the fact that they used bad tactics.

Hopefully they will learn from this and not keeping whineing about not having the AESA radar.


So.... they went in without AMRAAM or their full capabilities, which they will ALWAYS have in combat; and they didn't have a tactic for it.... I wonder why not? Come on, you think those guys actually train and think about a situation like that? Hell no! They train to go full up and use everything that will realistically be at their disposal, not how to fight with cuffs on. That's why their "tactics" weren't right for the situation, and you have no idea what the ROE for the exercise were and what the F-15s were supposed to simulate. I have no doubt that the -30 is one hell of an airplane, but so is the Eagle.
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danhutmacher

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 06:23

If they are training right they should have back up tactics for when the AMRAAM DOES fail or the politiction put on ROEs that prohibit it's use.

Besides the AMRAAM is NOT the wonder weapon that everybody thinks. It has a performance envlope like every other missile and it CAN be beaten.
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2sBlind

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 16:23

True, anything can be beaten, but it sure tips the scales in our favor when we use it.
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pak_falcon

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Unread post21 Mar 2006, 19:36

no body can compete indians and there jets(oops).even their russian masters can`t.this is what shev wants to declare.....
just visit their own airforce sites and every one will come to now the exact figures of their demos.against pakistan airforce in different wars...
the skills of piolets may be equal but technology can`t be...and the fact is this that americans are far a head in all that respects..F\A-22 RAPTOR is the sole answer to every querry........
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Asif

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Unread post21 Mar 2006, 23:52

pak_falcon

Before we ban you for restarting any blatant flame wars I recommend you actually learn how to spell and us grammar in English. Theirs a great tool in this forum called 'SpellCheck'. The button appears in the options when responding to posts. Try using it!!

To others, recommend you don't reply to this. Anyone does then this whole posting gets canned or responding posts get trashed.
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hansundfranz

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Unread post22 Mar 2006, 20:11

2s blind,
in all training exersies generic missiles are used.

This is done to keep the real capabilites f a missile secret and to make hit miss calczulations humanly possible (the generic missiles envelopes are fairly simlified)
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Aks_20

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Unread post12 May 2006, 02:54

RSAF-G2 wrote:Ha, let's just hope the IAF will come to terms with its real performance and not create sensational reports of how "mighty" their SU-30s are...like what happened in the last RSAF-IAF exercise.


The IAF never created any reports, those were media claims and is well aware of its real performance- and lets face it in a real war the RSAF would lose. Furthermore, its the RSAF which is coming again to India this year- why? The IAF per its own reports has just stated:
MKIs performed well, so did the Mirages (I presume new ones with new radars) and MiG 29s
Bisons- not so well.
Last edited by Aks_20 on 12 May 2006, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Aks_20

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Unread post12 May 2006, 02:58

Northax wrote:Note: I said PROBABLY.

I didn't say it was proven fact! But logically thinking about what you'd do to impress someone, wouldn't you set up your opposing enemy against a maneuver or tactic you'd practiced for years, instead of a new unproven tactic? Of course you would. Therefore, my theory, in my opinion, stands. They probably used scenario's they've practiced with and/or against many times, and probably placed USAF F-15s in the most vulnerable spots. But, that's just the add-on. The main thing is, F-15s were outnumbered 3 times over.

Funny how anyone could brag about that, eh? :)

Anyway, I think USAF should get Block 60 F-16s and then go there; they'll have AESA radar, much better. :)


The IAF wasnt out to "impress" anyone. The F-15s are supposed to be "outnumbered" whilst practising against inferior aircraft arent they? Take a look at the tech the IAF fielded- all easily far behind the USAFs F15Cs in the exercise, and the actual A2A numbers were more balanced 6 vs 4, rest strikers- and both sides exchanged the role.
Only massive handicap was the lack of Slammers, but even so- the results would have been 50% each odd and that itself would be a wakeup call for the USAF.
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Aks_20

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Unread post12 May 2006, 03:04

toan wrote:
danhutmacher wrote:I would like to know the details of each enagement and what the roe was for this exercise.
I haven't been able to get much info from open sources. What I have been able to get is that the F-15s were just plain out flown.
The history of aircombat has shown that it's the pilot, his training, and then the Aircraft that provide for the winner.
I hope that the USAF has studied this exercise and has adjusted it's training as a result.


Some details about four F-15Cs of USAF versus twelve mixed Su-30K/Mig-29/MIRAGE2000-5/MIG-21 fighters of IAF.

The F-15C which played the exercise at that time didn't get AESA radar, and capabillity of AIM-120 firing stimulation was also limited as if the USAF was using AIM-7M, but not AIM-120 at that time. However, all of them had equipped JHMCS + AIM-9X + Data-link at that time, but it was still useless when they are out-numbered by the fighters of Indian air-force, and most of them had R-77 or MICA for stimulating....

http://www.nxtbook.com/fx/books/raytheo ... eek-oct04/


IAF has no Micas or even simulated them, Av Leak screwed up. Also the a/c were spilt into strikers escorted by bouncers- and latter went up against the F-15s, so the numbers were not necessarily as lopsided as made out.
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Aks_20

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Unread post12 May 2006, 03:06

cru wrote:But it WILL! If you talk abot slow speed maneuvers (specially designed for rusophile aviation fans...) yes, the 30 is a marvell. But no one pays 40 mil $ to entertain crowds... Except for the Indians... :lol:
.


Been following your comments for some time on this board- quite the little racist we have here with all that Indian baiting, plus of course u were banned from AFM for exactly this and the comments on Indians not being blonde and blue eyed and hence jealous of the USAF. Grow up.
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pafpilot

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Unread post12 May 2006, 17:00

hello everyone.
I just wanted to add something to this topic.
In aircombat, You dont win ONLY when you have a superior aircraft.You win when the pilot in the plane is using his head and knows the fullest of his aircraft.
I am not trying to flame up a war or something,just trying to give an example:
You see what really happened in Indo-Pak war of 1965 was that F-104 was much feared by the IAF, yet it shot down some of them.Similarly in 1971, MiG-21s were shot down by PAF SABRES.
What i want to say is that, every aircraft has some shortcomings and they are compensated or tried to be compensated by the pilot sitting in it.So dont base your posts on JUST TECHNOLOGY but account for everything.
THNX
Umar
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avon1944

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Unread post08 Jun 2006, 05:01

Aks_20 wrote:IAF has no Micas or even simulated them, Av Leak screwed up

You are incorrect! According to Janes Book of Aircraft 2004/2005 also credits the Indian AF having MICAs for the M-2000. So, the Su-30s had simulated AA-12s and only the F-15s did have SARH missiles -a generic Sparrow Missile.
The USAF practices the usage of its technical advantage in BVR, so limiting them virtually to WVR combat, hurts them badly. The F-15s were the only aircraft to not have HMDS. The Bisons and Su-30MKs also had HMDS. What would you expect the results to be.

Another thing that was stated in another AW&ST article was that after the exercise explained in the 10/04/04, there were exchange rides. The USAF spokesperson stated the USAF piloted Su-30MKs consistently won against F-15Cs flown by USAF pilots. Now, was this real or some artificial aerial contest, I don't know.

In addition to the USAF spokesperson stating the sucess of the Su-30's, this was echoed by congressman Cunningham discussing the results during a congressional session in the summer of 2004.

Adrian
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Unread post09 Jul 2006, 13:27

Well I see that our Su-fanatics tend to leave a nice clue out of every discussion. It is known that Su-30s, when loaded with total fuel load are a little more maneuverable than the Starfighters. Cheers!
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RoAF

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Unread post09 Jul 2006, 16:21

It is known that Su-30s, when loaded with total fuel load are a little more maneuverable than the Starfighters.

Not a Su fanatic here, but most combat planes manouver like an elephant when fully loaded with fuel and stores.
Also, contrary to western jets Su-30s do not carry external tanks, so you'd expect them not to have a full fuel load when they enter combat.
"It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom" (William Wallace 1272-1305)
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Unread post22 Jul 2006, 11:24

RoAF wrote:
It is known that Su-30s, when loaded with total fuel load are a little more maneuverable than the Starfighters.

Not a Su fanatic here, but most combat planes manouver like an elephant when fully loaded with fuel and stores.
Also, contrary to western jets Su-30s do not carry external tanks, so you'd expect them not to have a full fuel load when they enter combat.
Think twice RoAF.You just said that SU30s don't have a maximum fuel load,because they don't carry external fuel tanks.OK.Viper's max.speed is 2+ Mach.My Cessna doesn't have a maximum speed because it will be all over the place if it flies faster than 120 knots.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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