F-16 (blk 50/52) versus SU-30MKI - Cope Thunder 3

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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ACSheva

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Unread post30 Jun 2005, 00:33

AW&ST wrote:Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie/Aviation Week & Space Technology - May 24, 2002

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot" an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S.warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that couldmatch the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don't deny the F-22's value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft's actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.

At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.

The combination of Su-30 and R-27ER/ET (NATO designation AA-10), flown and fought in a competent fashion, also represents a significant threat. Even though the R-27ER is only a semiactive radar-guided missile, the extra maneuvering capability resulting from the large tcv motor is a significant improvement over the basic R-27. Basic Russian air force doctrine has long suggested following a semi-active missile launch immediately with an IR missile launch, such as the R-27ET. Theory has it that the target aircraft's crew will be occupied spoofing the inbound radar missile, only to fall to the second missile.

The R-27ER, while only semiactive, also outperforms the baseline R-77 ( AA-12) in terms of kinematics. The R-77 motor has a simple, and short, burn profile, which has resulted in disappointing performance, piquing the Russian air force's interest in developing the K-77M rather than fielding the basic AA-12 in any numbers. The K-77M (K denotes a missile still in development, while R reflects an inventory weapon) is an upgraded R-77 with improvements that include a larger motor with a burn sequence profiled to increase range.

The oft-touted, but yet-to-be-fielded, R-27EA active variant of the AA-10 could further enhance the Su-30's capabilities, were an export customer to buy the derivative. In terms of one-on-one combat, the second-generation Flanker family presents a considerable threat to aircraft not designed from the outset as low observable, unless they are capable of extended-range BVR missile engagements. For instance, this threat drove the British selection of a rocket-ramjet missile to equip the Eurofighter.

Quote:
Aircraft combat capabilities are usually assessed using complex efficiency indicators defining aircraft overall performance. According to preliminary estimates, in long-range air combat, the Su-30MK outperforms the F-16C Block 60, F-16C Block 50 and F-18E/F aircraft by 15, 20 and 12-15 percent, respectively, owing to its radar's greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and multichannel capability, as well as better maneuverability.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.


This is concluded by proffesional avia analysts I might add. 8)

Bigget, you can't argue worth a penny about this. You need to stop, seriously. When you ask quistions that you youreself cannot even answer.

The 30 is a better jet in most of the aspects that a jet is judged by. And YES it does manuever better than the 30 year old F15. Dont be foolish, and try to say that the F 15 will out manuever the Su 30. Because it will NOT. Look at the videos of what the 30 can do, and than look at the 15s stuff. Not even talking about the range, speed, and the weapons here. That should give you a good start.

Shev :D
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dimik

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Unread post30 Jun 2005, 04:12

ACSheva wrote:
  • What was the size and altitude of the airspace used in Cope India?
  • What was the max range missile shot allowed?
  • Was the max range missile shot allowed the same for all players?
  • What self-imposed restrictions did each side use?
  • Which side would retreat out of the airspace in order to avoid a loss?


First of all I would like to thank Dr Biggen from CNN for the interview. ;-) Its really nice. But I cannot answer those quistions, and NEITHER CAN Dr Biggen. I assure you. But It seems that our jet got waxed by a bigger, better, more manueverable plane, and some people now want to make up excuses for why it happend. No one can argue with that.

But what I do know is that the SU 30 got a shot on our F15 before the F15 could even detect the SU 30. Therefore the first man to shoot the missile will MOST likely win the fight. Correct? Nice try son, you can go home to mama now.

Shev


actually, Shev, you are erronous; both aircraft detected one another at the same range, yet the Su-30K was able to get the first shot off

I'm going to attempt at providing an analysis of which aircraft would be "better" when it comes down to an A2A duel.
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Biggen

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Unread post30 Jun 2005, 04:59

ACShuvit,

Nice article. Gee, I've never seen that one before...

First of all, what makes you think that the F-15/16/18/whatever can't use the same manuevers against the SU-30?

Second of all, anyone who knows anything about fighters can see all of the holes in the article.

For instance:

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile.


So they're saying the SU is sideways as the F-15 approaches. If we accept the premise in the article that this would actually work (no progress in the last 20 years) then in order to stay "invisible" (never mind that we're talking about the largest fighter in the world here) the SU must stay sideways to the Eagle. Now, if the SU turns toward the Eagle, then it isn't exactly invisible anymore, is it? When the Flanker turns toward the Eagle, it will be seen by radar, relocked and shot almost instantly. Hmmm. I guess that's not a good idea so the SU will have to stay sideways all the way to the merge. Wait a minute, that will allow the SU to be shot by a heat seeking missile. :)

Damn! :evil:

So how does the SU get "to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile"? Since the archer has roughly a 60 degree off-boresight capability, it must turn out of the "clutter notch" in order to fire that missile...and be shot by an amraam...or it can stay in the notch and get shot by an aim-9...

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that couldmatch the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi.


Ya think?
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cru

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Unread post30 Jun 2005, 06:45

This is concluded by proffesional avia analysts I might add.


Yeah sure... :lol:
That's an AvLeak article... the same magazine that said that ramjet AMRAAM were used in Desert Storm...
And YES it does manuever better than the 30 year old F15. Dont be foolish, and try to say that the F 15 will out manuever the Su 30. Because it will NOT

But it WILL! If you talk abot slow speed maneuvers (specially designed for rusophile aviation fans...) yes, the 30 is a marvell. But no one pays 40 mil $ to entertain crowds... Except for the Indians... :lol:

But if we are talking about the speeds a dogfight take place (0.8-1.2 M), than NO, the marvelous 30 does not maneuver better than the "30 years old"F 15... The 15 accelerates better and has a better sust. turning rate at supersonic speeds.

Not to mention that beaming could work in an 1:1 scenario; but this is verey unprobable. In "real life" the F 15 has MIDS datalink that give him situation awarness.
The US AF F-15 community has apparently switched to a BVR mentallity. When that was taken away from them the were unable to cope. Whichs shows POOR training in the F-15 community.


Again: yeah sure :lol:

If you are talking about Cope India result, the USAF has been "beaten" in BVR not in WVR!
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Unread post01 Jul 2005, 03:45

The 15 accelerates better and has a better sust. turning rate at supersonic speeds.


The Su MKI has a more powerfull engine, it will out climb, and out accelerate the 15. And since when are dogfights held at supersonic speeds. Probably NEVER. The 30 has a tremendous advantage over its enemy.

the USAF has been "beaten" in BVR not in WVR!


If you get beat in BVR, than there is NO WVR. Why? cause youre dead. You lost.

Shev
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cru

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Unread post01 Jul 2005, 07:03

The Su MKI has a more powerfull engine, it will out climb, and out accelerate the 15.
:shock:
The MKI has 2 AL 31 FP, each of 12,50kgf... The weight of the MKI is ~ 18 tons. So the T/W ratio (with the plane empty) is 1.38... The F 15 C has two P&W F 100-220, each of 10,500 kgf. The weight is 12,5 tons, so the T/W ratio is 1.68...More powerfull engines don't help if the plane has the weight of a small bomber...
The 30 has a tremendous advantage over its enemy
.

:lol: see this:http://www.eurofighter.com/Typhoon/SwingRole/
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cru

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Unread post01 Jul 2005, 07:05

I forget: click mission effectivenss
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CheckSix

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Unread post02 Jul 2005, 11:34

Looks like propaganda data without scale!
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Unread post02 Jul 2005, 13:16

Ok, what this exercise shows is that the F-15 is in serious trouble with sparrow like missile at close range against active missiles armed fighters at a numeric disadvantage of 3 to 1. Unbelievable isn't it?

Now send AESA equipped F-15s -better multi target capability, more resistant to jamming and so on.. - with 100km AIM-120D - available next year -, and see what happens..

Drawing the conclusion that the F-15 is outdated because of this exercise is completly ridiculous. That exercise only showed that it takes a good radar and long range multi-target active missiles.. DUH..
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Unread post04 Jul 2005, 01:40

I would like to know the details of each enagement and what the roe was for this exercise.
I haven't been able to get much info from open sources. What I have been able to get is that the F-15s were just plain out flown.
The history of aircombat has shown that it's the pilot, his training, and then the Aircraft that provide for the winner.
I hope that the USAF has studied this exercise and has adjusted it's training as a result.
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Unread post04 Jul 2005, 04:54

danhutmacher wrote:I would like to know the details of each enagement and what the roe was for this exercise.
I haven't been able to get much info from open sources. What I have been able to get is that the F-15s were just plain out flown.
The history of aircombat has shown that it's the pilot, his training, and then the Aircraft that provide for the winner.
I hope that the USAF has studied this exercise and has adjusted it's training as a result.


Some details about four F-15Cs of USAF versus twelve mixed Su-30K/Mig-29/MIRAGE2000-5/MIG-21 fighters of IAF.

The F-15C which played the exercise at that time didn't get AESA radar, and capabillity of AIM-120 firing stimulation was also limited as if the USAF was using AIM-7M, but not AIM-120 at that time. However, all of them had equipped JHMCS + AIM-9X + Data-link at that time, but it was still useless when they are out-numbered by the fighters of Indian air-force, and most of them had R-77 or MICA for stimulating....

http://www.nxtbook.com/fx/books/raytheo ... eek-oct04/
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Unread post08 Jul 2005, 06:15

Hey Toan,
It seems that what I feared was true. The F-15 drivers got cocky and went in with stupid tactics.
Given what the ROE were for the excerise they should have adjusted their tactics accordingly. What's said is that from the articule they are going to blame it on not having the AESA radar and not on the fact that they used bad tactics.
Hopefully they will learn from this and not keeping whineing about not having the AESA radar.
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Unread post09 Jul 2005, 04:14

Drawing the conclusion that the F-15 is outdated because of this exercise is completly ridiculous.


Well certainly. Thats why the F 22 is taking over. :lol:

Shev
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Unread post14 Jul 2005, 10:05

How many F-15Cs are sheduled to be equipped with AESA?
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Unread post17 Jul 2005, 05:31

The last I knew only the 18 F-15s assigned to the third fighter wing in Alaska were supposed to get the AESA.

But with the budget cuts to the F-22 I think that the air force will find the money to upgrade more.
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