Viper and Tomcat showdown

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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allenperos

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Unread post23 Aug 2005, 12:25

Gee, I never thought of those things before I posted. I can't wait for an actual engagment between an F-14 and F-16, in a war, with live ordinance.
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2sBlind

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Unread post23 Aug 2005, 15:00

You talking about Iran?
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allenperos

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Unread post23 Aug 2005, 16:12

I knew Iran had F-14A's virtually the same packages as the US, albiet some avionics packages. I thought they were grounded after the Shah of Iran passed. After reading an article on Iranian F-14's, the article had mentioned only a few out of a possible 80 were operational at a time. I had heard that there was a parts freeze on the aircraft and they were no longer flyable. Furthermore, the article stated President Nixon had visited the Shah in 1973 to deter the Mig 25 Flyovers and to prevent communist interest in the area. He had given the choice to the Shah of either selecting F-14's or F-15's.

As far as any engagements between the F-14 and F-16, the article did not mention any of these, although the article was relatively current, 2004 I believe. Perhaps you can clue me in on what happened? I wasn't certain of this. I stand corrected. I do have confidence in the F-16 in this situation, however. The F-14 is supposedly sluggish in ACM?
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2sBlind

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Unread post24 Aug 2005, 06:19

Iran is still flying Tomcats, although the number of airworthy aircraft is anyting but a hard number. Supposedly they've been getting parts from the black market and some domestic production (maybe with Russian help, nobody knows). They've been struggling ever since the fall of the Shah to keep them in the air, but they've been doing it - they're even talking of upgrades.... we'll see. You're right that the Iranian F-14's have never been engaged by F-16's - although everything being equal (AWACS support, numbers, etc.), I'd give the advantage to the Viper all the way.

If there was ever a merge, a Viper pilot would have to pork it away pretty bad to have a Tomcat get the best of him. Because of the Viper's high sustained and instantaneous turn rate (high-G and maneuverability) especially compared to a Tomcat's somewhat dismal BFM capability, it would be unlikely for a Viper to lose, but I'm sure it's been done. The winner in WVR combat is still highly dependent on maneuverability and pilot skill despite all the new high off-boresight missiles. It's just whether or not we'll ever see WVR combat again, who knows.

As far as BVR goes, the Tomcat would certainly have the advantage if there were still Phoenix missiles around and they were fired from max range. Since they don't have Phoenix's anymore (Iran spent all of theirs and the Navy took them out of the fleet), that leaves them with only the AIM-7. I'd give the advantage to an AMRAAM-equipped Viper over a Sparrow-equipped Tomcat anytime, BVR or WVR.

Jeez, why can't I ever write a short post.... sorry guys :oops:
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Safetystick

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Unread post24 Aug 2005, 15:58

AFM had an article a few months ago. The F-14 is still flying in Iran although no one knows how many. Apparently they are used almost like an armed AWACS, controlling other aircraft in a formation.

What was really bizzare was the armament. The AIM-54 was still in service but in ever reducing numbers. To retain a LRAAM capability Iran had adapted some soviet era SAM! Couldn't identify the type from the photo.
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agilefalcon16

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Unread post24 Aug 2005, 20:28

After doing quite a bit of research, I have found a link that shows Iran's current fleet of aircraft:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce-equipment.htm

According to this website, Iran currently operates 25 F-14A's. However though, the site says that only 30% are mission capable.

I hope you all find this info useful.
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kaiser_spawn

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 22:51

Actually you got it wrong Iran operatess around 80 tomcats which are now numberd 50 while about 30-40 are mission capable.
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Lawman

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Unread post24 Oct 2005, 02:40

kaiser_spawn wrote:Actually you got it wrong Iran operatess around 80 tomcats which are now numberd 50 while about 30-40 are mission capable.


They recieved 79 aircraft. The 80th didnt arrive before the revolution. Figure the losses due to aircraft attrition over 30 years, especially since they were forced to do more with less as far as logistics and using the much older and much less reliable Pratt motors. Its very likely that 25 operational aircraft is a level estimate of the Iranian Air Force's capabilities. Not to mention that when it comes to training we over all other nations would be best prepaired to fight against the Tomcat, our pilots have been doing it for training for 35 years. They know everything that aircraft can do inside and out.
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avon1944

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Unread post30 Oct 2005, 06:59

allenperos wrote:the article stated President Nixon had visited the Shah in 1973 to deter the Mig 25 Flyovers


No, it was the Shah who visited President Nixon. Then there was a fly-off between F-14A and F-15A, in Iran. The Shah preferred the F-14A main because of the Phoenix Missile.

The F-14 is supposedly sluggish in ACM?

In dogfighting the F-14 should try and keep its speed up near the transonic region at about 20,000 feet altitude. This is where the corner velocity of the F-14 is, "Mach 1.2 at 20,000 feet!


2sBlind wrote:they've been getting parts from the black market and some domestic production (maybe with Russian help, nobody knows).


There was even satellite photos of a Tomcat at a Russian air base. Smart money says in exchange for examining/testing the F-14, the Russian would provide technical assistance to the Iranians.

You're right that the Iranian F-14's have never been engaged by F-16's - although everything being equal (AWACS support, numbers, etc.), I'd give the advantage to the Viper all the way.


No the F-14 would be foolish to engage the Viper in WVR. The Tomcat should use the same sort of tactics used by the Tornado F.3 against the F-16's, BVR only!

they don't have Phoenix's anymore (Iran spent all of theirs

I don't know if Iran has used all of its Phoenix Missiles but, I do know the I²RAF did have over 100 confirmed kills with their F-14's while losing about 13 of them to the Iraqi AF during the Iran Iraq War. Fifty-four of the confirmed kills were with Phoenix Missiles. Killing Backfire bombers -Tu-22B, MiG.-21's, 23's, 25's &, 27's, Su-20's, PRC F-6's, French Mirage F.1EQ and Super Etendard aircraft.

URL -http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

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zgiglio

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 02:26

Having fought the Tomcat from Miramar a lot while stationed at Luke (in the Blk25), here's my two pennies.

Tomcat - Big radar: Yes; but also huge RCS.
Radar contact on F-14 with the old C model radar was well outside anyone's usable range, including the Phoenix. Sure a Phoenix is a big missile with long legs but it's SLOW. Bottom line, we could safely drag at 12 miles if targeted. Just don't turn back too soon.
Simulating 'Rammers we'd all end up dragging out 12-15 miles out and everyones' shots were wasted. BFD.
Get into WVR, a Viper should own a Tomcat (even a POS Blk 25). But don't get slow, the A+ / D with GE motors could surprise you with power to go up.
Viper with a GE? Jeez, send me two "kitties" I'm hungry!
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Raptor_One

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 05:43

2sBlind wrote:Energy conservation is also going the wayside because of the T-W ratios that are coming out now. When a Blk 50/52 Viper can accelerate in a 7-8G limiter-pull turn to a 9G one, saving energy isn't necessarily the primary concern anymore, it's getting out of the enemy's WEZ or defeating his shot - admittedly, you have to be in a position where lighting the blower isn't going to get you an Archer up the tailpipe, but a 9G break even in idle will quickly put an enemy out of a WEZ and once they are out that WEZ, light the blower and keep cranking at 9G - soon he'll be in your WEZ if he can't pull and sustain 9Gs.


No F-16 block can accelerate in a level turn at the CAT I limit while pulling 7-8G. That is just fact. I'm not sure who told you the F-16C Block 50 or 52 could do that, but neither block can.
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2sBlind

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 19:27

Did I say level turn?
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Raptor_One

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 23:25

Well... if you're not talking level turn, what are you talking about? Lots of aircraft can accelerate doing a split S and pulling maximum G available. Regardless, an F-16 would have to be doing an extremely severe slice to accelerate pulling 7-8G at the CAT I limit. That's just fact. A clean Block 50 or 52 will have a low speed bleed rate in a slice and the steeper the slice, the lower it will be. However, the F-16 needs a LOT of help from gravity to accelerate pulling 7-8G on the CAT I limit. For those reasons, I disagreed with your comments.
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PetervanStigt

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Unread post06 Nov 2005, 01:45

I think close-in Viper will win hands-down, BVR is (or better said WAS) more Tomcat's domain. I read somewhere that Phoenix was not all that reliable. That widely-advertised 18 track/6 simul kills test mission was far from a real operational engagement, using drones flying more or less straight and level. I saw a pic of an Iranian F14 carrying a HAWK (Homing All The Way Killer) SAM on a modified PNX rail, as a stop-gap solution...
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Unread post08 Nov 2005, 21:04

Raptor One - Oh so wrong. Go talk to a demo Viper pilot about his power setting in his 360 9G level break turn. Also, if your doing more than 500 Kts in a Big Mouth Blk 30, it'll hold 9Gs till you G-LOC or run outta gas, though that depends on altitude. (I've done the hold 9Gs and accelerate thing, actually it was 9.5 but I was a lil fast at the merge and it was not level)
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