F-16A/B w/o AIM-9L vs MiG-21BIS with R-60M and R-13M

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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kubam4a1

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 10:55

How do you think, would Viper beat MiG-21bis, if Viper had only AIM-9Ps, and Fishbed- two R-13Ms and R-60Ms. I think that they are quite comparable, because R-13M is similar to AIM-9P. R-60M is also pretty good A2A missile, and has got front-attacking capability, so...

I think that it would depend on pilot's skills only. Of course, Falcon has no BVR capability
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parrothead

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 02:35

OK, now this is getting rediculous :bang: ! We started out with the F-16 vs MiG-29 etc. and now we have this??? Why don't we go ahead and pose the question of F-16 w/o missiles vs. F-101 with nuclear Genies? I think I've had enough :evil: .
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Cylon

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 04:57

OH YEAH... How about VIPER VS MIKE DITKA!!!!

DITKA!@!

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Cylon

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 05:28

(old SNL joke for...)
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parrothead

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 05:32

[music]Another one bites the dust! And another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust... :twisted: [/music]

Note: This was also posted in the MiG-29 vs F-16 thread.

GO VIPERS :thumb: !!!
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kubam4a1

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 10:05

Three or four years ago, Poland wanted to purchase F-16A/Bs (probably no ADF) to replace old MiG-21bis. I wanted only to show that older versions of Vipers are NOT good fighters (but many people say that F-16A/Bs are very good) and NOT better than either MiG-21bis or MiG-23ML/MLD
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parrothead

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 10:40

OK, that's what I thought :twisted: .

[personal opinion] kubam4a1, you seem to have forgotten that this is a site for the enjoyment of fans of the F-16, not those who think it's a piece of junk :evil: . Most of us would rather ride a bike than fly a MiG-21 (I know this is the case for at least one member besides me :wink: ) and I can't believe you'd post something like that on this board and yes, I respect the freedom of speech of everyone here.

Why do you want to beat up on the favorite fighter jet of nearly everyone here, especially when Poland ended up acquiring top of the line Vipers, not older ones? Please review this article ( http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article15.html ) on this site for more info.

Now if you want to debate the F-16 vs MiG-21 or -23 arguement, please direct your attention to those topics (you might have to create the -21 topic as most of us see this as an :doh: easy kill :devil: . Why do we consider it an easy kill? Just take a look at the Fishbed's record vs the Phantom over Vietnam and the shortocmings of the design (the cockpit being only one of them). You can also call up the San Diego Flight Museum at Brown Field in Otay Mesa in the southern San Diego County, California - they have a two seat Fishbed and they'll tell you what it's like to maintain and fly it :wink: !

A couple of other things you appear to have failed to take into account are the Viper's ease of maintenance vs the Fisbed's (It can't do sh*t if it can't get airborne :D ) and the Viper's advantage in maneuverability vs the Fishbed. Or are those the reasons you handicapped the Viper in this scenario :x ?

One other thing, is there some reason the older versions of the Viper can't carry the newer Sidewinders? I'm asking because I really don't know. I guess it doesn't really matter since POLAND GOT THE NEW ONES ANYWAY!!!

Parrothead out.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 12:54

Yes, now it gets new ones, I know, but these were ideas to purchase 44 new Block52s and 16 F-16A/Bs. About old versions of Sidewinders - Poland might have hadn't enough money to buy newer. Also, I read in some books that F-16A/B is equal to Mig-21BIS (and only BIS) in A2A. These books were about Russia's airforce, but were published in Poland.
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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 20:20

I might only be a civilian enthusiast, but even I can site several reasons the Viper would have the upper hand against the MiG.

Visibility - take a look at the canopies. The Viper pilot sits up high in a bubble canopy where he can look over his shoulder and see the tailfeathers on the engine.

Cockpit design and layout - The Viper pilot doesn't have to look down or take his hands off the controls in a fight.

Flight controls - MiG = old school, Viper = FBW

Turning - the Viper was the first 9G jet, the MiG is 1950s and '60s tech in its heart and I can't see any signifigant upgrades to the basic aerodynamics. The Viper also benefits from relaxed static stability, making it easier to maneuver.

Now, aside from all that, we can look at the combat and reliability records of both jets. From what I understand, the Viper wins in both of those.

Where did you get the info about Poland buying older sidewinders? And why go all the way back to the L? It would seem to me that if you're buying 44 new Block 52s and sixteen new A/B models, you'd probably include some newer 'Winders for the 52s at least.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post12 Feb 2005, 22:06

Sth OT: I did not get any info, but I'll give you one, nice example from our country. Our MiG-29's pilots have not lanuched ANY R-27 OR R-73 at training since their basic MiG-29's training . We have got MiG-29's for about 15 years.... So I may suspect everything. Last but not least: I am also only a civilan enthusiast. I write things, which can be read either in Polish defence magazines or in books or on the net. But informations about lacks in stores have been shown many times. Imagine that in 1 ELT in Warsaw in 2001 there were 22 Fulcrums, and 7 - 10 were able to take off, other needed mainteance or spare parts....
And I can suspect everything....Our Ministry of Defence is poor, very poor....
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Unread post13 Feb 2005, 00:35

parrothead wrote:OK, now this is getting rediculous :bang: ! We started out with the F-16 vs MiG-29 etc. and now we have this??? Why don't we go ahead and pose the question of F-16 w/o missiles vs. F-101 with nuclear Genies? I think I've had enough :evil: .


parrothead, thanks for sharing your opinion. Since the Forum Admin has not shifted the post, I guess it is opened for discussion.

I feel kubam4a1 has made a valid post. He has explicitly spelled out the baseline, which is essential before every comparison can be conducted. Perhaps the baseline should really be made in the starting post but not in the subject.

In any case, he was only posting a query. If it arouses our interest, we can participate, else we will just take a miss. After all this is an opened forum and we do advocate the freedom of speech, as you've mentioned.

regards,
Desmond
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ACSheva

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Unread post13 Feb 2005, 00:48

Most of us would rather ride a bike than fly a MiG-21


don't forget the old Soviet 21 was a great jet. One of the most used airframes of all time.

Shev
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Unread post13 Feb 2005, 02:07

Pumpkin,

I agree with you. If it's a (somewhat) questionable topic we usually wait to see what the response is - if there are any takers, so much the better ...

though I have to admit I have my doubts about this one, as well as some similarr topics.

I noticed some of you share the same doubts, so we'll see where this leads...

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ic&t=2293&

Stefaan
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parrothead

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Unread post13 Feb 2005, 03:20

Pumpkin and Stefaan, maybe I should be a bit more tolerant. I'm sorry for any ruffled feathers, too. I'm just getting a bit tired of the posts that seem to try to find ways to bring down Vipers. It's almost like some people are trying to find some way to defeat my favorite jet and are just waiting for someone to say "Yeah, that'll do it." It's getting more and more into tactics instead of the merits of the jets themselves.

ACSheva, I know that it's a prolific aircraft, but that doesn't always make it a good one. Some might say the same about the Viper. It's opinion for the most part, but a lot more Indian Fishbeds than US or allied Vipers have lawndarted lately. I've gotten up close and personal with a Fishbed and I don't really know that it's my kind of plane. The cockpit leaves a bit to be desired, for one thing. Here's a coupe of pics from Miramar 2003. This particular Fishbed belongs to the San Diego Flight Museum based at Brown Field near the Mexican border.
Attachments
MiG21.1.jpg
The San Diego Flight Museum's MiG-21
MiG21.Cockpit.jpg
MiG-21 Cockpit
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ACSheva

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Unread post13 Feb 2005, 05:03

What do you expect parrothead, its a 60's machine. Of course its not gonna be what you might want it to be. The bottom line is for its served time it was a great jet,a very formidable jet. If the Vietnamese were great pilots we would of lost allot more of Phantoms to the fast,more manueverable 21.Also it was very cheap,compared to its F 4 opponent which was very pricy. Still both jets were cool.

Shev
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