F-16 versus Mirage 2000

Jeff · by **Jeff** » 21 Apr 2005, 08:45

Predator, while I understand your patriotic enthusiasm, please refrain from political statements.

Predator · by **Predator** » 21 Apr 2005, 12:53

While you say that you understand my patriotic enthousiasm, there is no reason to tell me this, my friend! I'm here because off my love for F-16 not to cause ''national'' problems between Turkey and Greece!

Fantasma337 · by **Fantasma337** » 28 May 2005, 22:56

Hey Lamoey, do you have a link or can provide a scan maybe by pm? TIA!

Predator, this is for you! :wink:

Northax · by **Northax** » 01 Jun 2005, 22:23

What happens when the F-16 has the same payload as the Mirage though? Compare the thrust-to-weight ratio then? To be fair. You can compare two jets, but maybe one is used more for one role (A2A), and the other jet is used for another (A2G). Now, what if both jets carried the same amount of bombs, which would be better? Is what should looked into.

kovamaniac · by **kovamaniac** » 20 Jun 2005, 19:17

As far as the M2000 vs F-16 comparison is concerned, I should add something totally practical which comes from daily usage of both types in HAF. What I want to say is generally that when a HAF M2000 wants to engage a Viper, it leads the Viper at low altitude where the M2000 connot be beaten in any way.I haven't seen yet any aircraft-apart from Su-27 family,which is, for me, the best aircraft ever built-that can achieve "Kill Hour" on a M2000 below 6-7,000 ft no matter the aspect between them. Ok? I have nothing else to add,as Fantasma337 -ask him about F-4E, I think no one else knows more about this aircraft- and the other Greek friends covered me and gave you a very clear picture about the M2000.

PS: I should mention that this is not a thread talking about HAF and TuAF or Greeks' and Turks' politics.

duplex · by **duplex** » 21 Mar 2006, 19:06

Would you agree with these statements of a former HAF fighter pilot?

<<To conclude, the Mirage 2000 is slicker than the Viper but less powerful. >>

This true.

>>With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight>>

This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).

I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.

The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.
Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?

Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles - whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.

HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331's (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332's primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.

The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system

toan · by **toan** » 22 Mar 2006, 12:10

To Mr.Duplex:

According to your experience, is the scenario of MIRAGE2000-5 MKII versus F-16 C/D BLOCK52 quite different from the scenario of MIRAGE2000-5 MKII versus F-16 C/D BLOCK30/40, since the T/W ratio and thrust of C/D BLOCK 52 should be much more than C/D BLOCK 30/40????

Does the HAF still prepare to introduce Eurofighter or not???

boff180 · by **boff180** » 22 Mar 2006, 13:12

thats not known toan; they recently turned down the option for more F-16s... they originally cancelled there order for 90 typhoons citing the cost of running the olympics and ordered 30 f-16 with 10 options....

Now they have turned down the 10 options and are going to announce next month a new fighter competition for 60 aircraft... the Typhoon is the favourite with Rafale running a close second at the moment.

Andy

duplex · by **duplex** » 31 Mar 2006, 06:41

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... urpg-1.cms

HAF seems not to be the only one who prefers M2000 over Viper.IMO Rafale will win over Typhoon in Greece..The Greeks have traditionally excellent relations with French and Dassault is desperate to find an export market for Rafale and may offer very very favorable terms..

MILITIS · by **MILITIS** » 28 Apr 2006, 02:41

My dad actually fought some Jordani M2000 both times they bled off airspeed extremely fast wich ultimatly cost them the fight. The Mirage is a good head on fighter but in a furball it has difficulty.

Corous · by **Corous** » 11 May 2006, 00:32

duplex wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1455855,curpg-1.cms

HAF seems not to be the only one who prefers M2000 over Viper.IMO Rafale will win over Typhoon in Greece..The Greeks have traditionally excellent relations with French and Dassault is desperate to find an export market for Rafale and may offer very very favorable terms..

very very favorable terms, eh? i want 0 down, 0% APR, no payment til 2020.

Back to the topic, the Mirage2000 can carry 6 BVRAAMs + 2 WVRAAMs IIRC. So it's a draw in an engagement with a Viper, assuming that the MICA is comparable to the AMRAAM.

boff180 · by **boff180** » 11 May 2006, 06:54

The MICA is comparable, however current French radars compared to other European and US radars are quite... well... PANTS!

Andy

RoAF · by **RoAF** » 11 May 2006, 10:03

MILITIS wrote:

My dad actually fought some Jordani M2000 both times they bled off airspeed extremely fast wich ultimatly cost them the fight. The Mirage is a good head on fighter but in a furball it has difficulty.

Maybe he fought them in a computer game. Jordan NEVER HAD ANY Mirage 2000, only some Mirage F1, a totally different bird.

Corous wrote:

Back to the topic, the Mirage2000 can carry 6 BVRAAMs + 2 WVRAAMs IIRC. So it's a draw in an engagement with a Viper, assuming that the MICA is comparable to the AMRAAM.

Not quite exact. The M 2000 can carry max. 4 MICA (usually RF version) under the fuselage, 2 Magic II or MICA IR on the outer wing pylons ant 3 fuel tanks (inboards and centerline).

boff180 · by **boff180** » 11 May 2006, 16:00

inboards can also carry super530 alongside mica.

RoAF · by **RoAF** » 11 May 2006, 16:08

inboards can also carry super530 alongside mica.

Yes, it can be done (technically). But it's not practical for a combat configuration. If you launch all 4 Micas first, wait for the result, by the time you merge (if you merge) you've got two draggy and useless missiles for WWR combat. On the other hand, if you fire the Super 530 first you have to guide them all the way and if they miss you won't have enough time to set up a Mica shot.