F-16 versus Mirage 2000

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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pilot71

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Unread post03 Feb 2005, 07:56

One remark regarding the Greek Mirage 2000s. During the first order of 40 Mirage 2000 EG/BG the reception of HAF was stopped due to RDM problems (1989).

When the problems where solved (partially?? Who knows..) the aircrafts where accepted by HAF. Now the acceptance of the 15 new Mirage 2000-5 MK2 has been postponed due to ICMS EW problems.

On the contrary, the delivery of F-16s (3 orders 1989, 1997, 2004) was done without problems. I guess this is one of the reasons why HAF prefers F-16 more than Mirage 2000.

In any case we are looking forward for the first dissimilar (BVR+dogfight) engagements over Aegean between F-16 block52+ vs Mirage 2000-5 MK2 by the end of 2005...
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Wildcat

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Unread post03 Feb 2005, 12:04

ACSheva wrote:
One thing I dont get is why the rear view on the Mirages is so poor. Does any body know the reason for that type of design?

First, the rear view on the Mirage 2000 is not "so poor". True, there is nothing like the view a Viper pilot can get. Nonetheless, the back of the Mirage 2000 is quite thin, so that the rear view is not as much hampered as you may imagine (remember that, on any aircraft, you cannot look through the pilot seat...). I will try to find pics of rear view on Mirage 2000 as soon as I can to show that.
And what about not having a bubble canopy like the Viper? Because of aerodynamics: the Mirage 2000 was built like an arrow. A bubble canopy would have reduced the maximum speed of the Mirage 2000.
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Fantasma337

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Unread post06 Feb 2005, 04:41

Pilot 71 ( Antwnh?) as you will remember teh designation EGM stands for Modified, after the clutter problems in look down mode of te RDM were adressed... Even the AdlA did not accept the RDM and the last software glitches of the -5 Mk.II's hopefully will be gone soon... The reluctance of the HAF to accept a system that meets less than 100% of te specificationbs is a result of the EG paradigm and this was demonstrated in teh PI2000 AUP program as well... 8 days ago the first upgraded EGM --> -5 Mk.II made its first flight in Tanagra, so things are moving well...
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Unread post06 Feb 2005, 12:35

About the RDM: Actually, the Armée de l'Air should never have used RDM radars on its Mirage 2000, but the intended radar, i.e. the RDI, encountered development delaying. Therefore the Armée de l'Air had no choice and its first Mirage 2000C were equipped with RDM instead of RDI, even if it was not a satisfying solution. Notice that, at the time (I'm not sure it changed, though), our RDM Mirage 2000 could only fire Super 530F and not Super 530D, contrary to the export models, because the proper illuminator was not fitted.
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pilot71

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Unread post07 Feb 2005, 13:35

Fantasma 337, thanks for the info about the progress of upgraded M2000s. Taking under consideration that the Greek M2000-5 MK2 will not be equiped with Topsight, I do not believe that will have any chance against F-16 block52+ or Turkish CCIP F-16s (after two years) in dogfight.. JHMCS with IRIS-T or AIM9X make the diffirence..
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Unread post08 Feb 2005, 02:48

In wvr combat yes, in bvr no since the MICA/ER :cheers: is the new factor in the equation... :crazypilot:
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Unread post08 Feb 2005, 02:55

Nice picture! The SPC of the Mirage is really awesome. It spoof any BVR be it active or semi-active till the point of merge. There was this big x cross on the HUD prevented the missile from being launched. But 9x, ASRAAM, Python 5, Iris-t and latest archer may solved the SPJ issue, since they can be considered an BVR as well (max theoretical range 15-25 nm against hot aspect target).
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ACSheva

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Unread post08 Feb 2005, 03:55

Nahhhh man,

the back view on the Mirage is still pretty crappy for a pretty new jet. Its almost like a Mig 27 type thing. The pilot gotta have a hard time, when some guy is parked on his 6.


:cheers:
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Unread post07 Mar 2005, 16:37

The -5 is an exceptional aircraft in every way, and in the hands of the right customer, it can play havoc with Vipers. In the case of the ROCAF, their electronic suites, RDY radar and BVR capability will be very well employed against PLAAF J-10s/J-11s.

In the case of the HAF and especially its pilots, I believe that the TuAF Block 30/40/50 fleet amred with mostly AIM-120As and Bs, and very few of them at that, will have a very hard time against the Dassault squadrons.

In the case of equally skilled HAF M2000-5 Vs F-16C Blk 52+ pilots, I think we'd be in for a very close match. The -5s would operate better at higher alts and optimize their RDY and probably superior ICMS2K suites to full effect against the 52+s long-stick AIM-120C5s. In short, the BVR arena is likely to be won by the -5s, due to kinematic advantages, more powerful EW systems, better AA radar and shorter ranged, but more lethal AA missiles. This would definately not be a consinstent thing though-the +52 will very much hold its own in BVR as well.

Approaching the merge, the JHMCS/IRIS-T combination should kill anything that flies. Period.

Generally, maneuvering wise, the M2Ks operate better at high altitude and have a sharper and faster instantenous turn rate which can be exploited for a quick shot. Mirage-2000Cs have definately made of that + the Mica's off boresight capability to good effect.

I think the latest offerings from both Dassault + Lockheed are very equally matched, each with its own strong points.
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Unread post05 Apr 2005, 18:01

Read an article in the magazine "Illustrated Aircraft" from March 2005 where a HAF MIRA 330 squadron commander states the following:

"I'm very satisfied with the F-16 - in fact, I love it. In particular I love the Block 30."

He also states about the Mirage 2000 used mainly for Air to Air:

"It's an effective fighter, which the f-16 can't beat in a dogfight."

He ends by saying:

"The F-16 is much better multi-roll combat jet... it really is the complete package..."

To me this captures it in a nutshell.
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Unread post08 Apr 2005, 21:55

Pumpkin wrote:I guess it is not a just statement to make, (again due to politcial factors), but among the Viper operators who also operate the Mirage (UAEAF, ROCAF, HAF), I'm seeing the Viper as their main fighting force and Mirage as the complement. Please correct me if the statement is wrong.

cheers,


In ROCAF, Mirage 2000 took over the missions F-104 used to do: high altitude/high speed intercept and they are deployed at the airfield closet to China on the Taiwan island. Also, ROCAF only purchased A2A and E-Int equipments for Mirage 2000. So it's pure A2A aircraft for ROCAF for sure.

F-16 is also the first line and more versatile to ROCAF, especially A2G and Reconn missions.
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Pumpkin

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Unread post09 Apr 2005, 08:16

cobrachen wrote:In ROCAF, Mirage 2000 took over the missions F-104 used to do: high altitude/high speed intercept and they are deployed at the airfield closet to China on the Taiwan island. Also, ROCAF only purchased A2A and E-Int equipments for Mirage 2000. So it's pure A2A aircraft for ROCAF for sure.

F-16 is also the first line and more versatile to ROCAF, especially A2G and Reconn missions.


Thanks for the info, cobrachen (a Chinese nick, I gather? :wink: ),

I guess another reason why the ROCAF Mirage 2000 are taking the front-line, interceptor role is because they were equipped with MICA much earlier when the F-16 were only carrying the AIM-7. And Mirage would have already achieved FOC with the MICA when the AIM-120 arrived.

cheers,

PS : May I ask, what is the E-Int equipment, you have mentioned?
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Unread post15 Apr 2005, 07:12

pilot71 wrote:Fantasma 337, thanks for the info about the progress of upgraded M2000s. Taking under consideration that the Greek M2000-5 MK2 will not be equiped with Topsight, I do not believe that will have any chance against F-16 block52+ or Turkish CCIP F-16s (after two years) in dogfight.. JHMCS with IRIS-T or AIM9X make the diffirence..



Turks and Greeks are engaged in competitive dogfights over the aegean sea since more than 10 years....I know since I am from Turkey that the Greeks are deploying more and more F-16 's to intercept the Turkish F-16's and no more M2000. The Turkish fighting falcons have been outperforming the Greek M2000's all the time..
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Unread post15 Apr 2005, 21:35

duplex wrote:
pilot71 wrote:Fantasma 337, thanks for the info about the progress of upgraded M2000s. Taking under consideration that the Greek M2000-5 MK2 will not be equiped with Topsight, I do not believe that will have any chance against F-16 block52+ or Turkish CCIP F-16s (after two years) in dogfight.. JHMCS with IRIS-T or AIM9X make the diffirence..



Turks and Greeks are engaged in competitive dogfights over the aegean sea since more than 10 years....I know since I am from Turkey that the Greeks are deploying more and more F-16 's to intercept the Turkish F-16's and no more M2000. The Turkish fighting falcons have been outperforming the Greek M2000's all the time..


I think since the Turks have set up their ACMI range, their skills have improved considerably on the F-16s and that may have something to do with the fact that they are able to exploit the vipers' capability maybe more than what the Greeks have been able to do with their M2Ks. Not sure what the Greeks are upto?...although I must admit that from a standpoint of hardware, the Greeks have some really good stuff on hand.
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Unread post21 Apr 2005, 07:50

The -5 is a very capable aircraft and will be in action with HAF very soon. Furthermore, the problems with them are going to be past! I'm sure that Turks will find a very good and ''dangerous'' component in Aegean! Be sure!
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