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Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 17:26
by piston
pmi wrote:Google Project Constant Peg & the 4477th TES. There have been other programs involved with testing Russian aircraft, but that is the one you'll find the most info about (Constant Peg's existence was declassified in '06).



I'm afraid that WarPac MiG-s were tested beyond "Constant Peg" ...
Also no joy with "Constant peg" at google (no .pdf with original docs found).. :roll:

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 19:34
by pmi
piston wrote:I'm afraid that WarPac MiG-s were tested beyond "Constant Peg" ...
Also no joy with "Constant peg" at google (no .pdf with original docs found).. :roll:


I stated as much in my post. Have Drill, Have Doughnot (which focused on the Mig-17 & 21) or whatever follows ons there have been. But it is going to be harder to find data on later DIA or USAF programs as they are still classified.

The best place to start is Red Eagles: America’s Secret MiGs by Stevie Davies.

Re: Re:

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 10:20
by mk82
lrrpf52 wrote:
pucara70 wrote:Well, the MiG-23 MLD or Flogger-G, is a superb fighter and interceptor, but the F-16 is more agile and can do more manouvers in the sky. The AA-8 Aphid (R-60) is similar to any sidewinder version, except the brand new AIM-9X, and the AA-11 Archer and AA-10 Alamo are better than all the Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles, only the AMRAAM is better. In a real engagement the pilot would decide the combat, the machines are quite similar in possibilities, specialy if the MiG has the AA-11 and AA-10 missiles.


Russian BVR missile real world record is garbage, close enough to 0% pk to round down, even when illuminated by Su-27 radar at the hands of some of the most experienced Russian Su-27 pilots firing the R-27.

Whenever I see these claims about Russian BVR missile superiority, I know they're based on repetition of other people's statements without any technical analysis and performance.

The US/UK/NATO did one of the most exhaustive technical exploitation programs on the MiG-29 with R-27 and R-73. The R-27 live shots on target drones was absolute garbage both in the UK test area and down in Florida.

The R-73, on the other hand, performed as advertised with the HMS, with thrust vectoring. It was a large impetus in re-fielding of a HMS and Helmet-Cued AIM-9 variant.

As far as BVR missiles go, the US and NATO partners, as well as Israel in particular, have the most real-world BVR missile kill experience. The AIM-7E accounted for the majority of MiG kills in SEA, mostly MiG-21s.

The F-15C/AIM-7M had 24 of 32 F-15C A2A kills in Desert storm.

The AIM-120 has been used multiple times for BVR and WVR kills.

The Israeli missiles have been used well over a hundred times to yield A2A kills on Soviet-built fighters, many of those having been AIM-7s.

Russian-built BVR missiles.....crickets. Not saying they haven't magically fabricated them, but combat record and lessons-learned from actual missile performance, plus live testing in the West smokes the Russian and Eastern examples by factors in the hundreds to zero range if you do the math.

For every single one of those Israeli F-15A/F-15C/F-16A kills from 1979-1982, there is not only HUD footage for the HUD camera, but radar footage in the data tapes as well.

Israelis are very open about combat losses, as is the US, and have been so for decades.


Absolutely spot on!

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2020, 07:45
by eloise
basher54321 wrote:After Bekaa Valley in the early 80s the Soviet Air Force published a supplementary air combat manual called Aide-Memoire for the MiG-23MLD Pilot on Air Combat vs F-15A, F-I6A, F-4E and Kfir C.2, - this was translated by Mladenov back in 2003 for airforces monthly.com - this is basically the version Syria and Bulgaria had which was a new build MLA airframe with MLD avionics.

Do you have the original version of this manual? I can't find it

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2020, 13:47
by basher54321
eloise wrote:Do you have the original version of this manual? I can't find it


No unfortunately - only what Mladenov published from it currently.

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2020, 14:41
by eloise
basher54321 wrote:
eloise wrote:Do you have the original version of this manual? I can't find it


No unfortunately - only what Mladenov published from it currently.

Can you post it please

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2020, 08:28
by basher54321
check PM

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2020, 10:26
by eloise
basher54321 wrote:check PM

thank you

Re: Re:

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2020, 13:57
by hornetfinn
mk82 wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
pucara70 wrote:Well, the MiG-23 MLD or Flogger-G, is a superb fighter and interceptor, but the F-16 is more agile and can do more manouvers in the sky. The AA-8 Aphid (R-60) is similar to any sidewinder version, except the brand new AIM-9X, and the AA-11 Archer and AA-10 Alamo are better than all the Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles, only the AMRAAM is better. In a real engagement the pilot would decide the combat, the machines are quite similar in possibilities, specialy if the MiG has the AA-11 and AA-10 missiles.


Russian BVR missile real world record is garbage, close enough to 0% pk to round down, even when illuminated by Su-27 radar at the hands of some of the most experienced Russian Su-27 pilots firing the R-27.

Whenever I see these claims about Russian BVR missile superiority, I know they're based on repetition of other people's statements without any technical analysis and performance.

The US/UK/NATO did one of the most exhaustive technical exploitation programs on the MiG-29 with R-27 and R-73. The R-27 live shots on target drones was absolute garbage both in the UK test area and down in Florida.

The R-73, on the other hand, performed as advertised with the HMS, with thrust vectoring. It was a large impetus in re-fielding of a HMS and Helmet-Cued AIM-9 variant.

As far as BVR missiles go, the US and NATO partners, as well as Israel in particular, have the most real-world BVR missile kill experience. The AIM-7E accounted for the majority of MiG kills in SEA, mostly MiG-21s.

The F-15C/AIM-7M had 24 of 32 F-15C A2A kills in Desert storm.

The AIM-120 has been used multiple times for BVR and WVR kills.

The Israeli missiles have been used well over a hundred times to yield A2A kills on Soviet-built fighters, many of those having been AIM-7s.

Russian-built BVR missiles.....crickets. Not saying they haven't magically fabricated them, but combat record and lessons-learned from actual missile performance, plus live testing in the West smokes the Russian and Eastern examples by factors in the hundreds to zero range if you do the math.

For every single one of those Israeli F-15A/F-15C/F-16A kills from 1979-1982, there is not only HUD footage for the HUD camera, but radar footage in the data tapes as well.

Israelis are very open about combat losses, as is the US, and have been so for decades.


Absolutely spot on!


This is really interesting IMO as it seems true that Soviet BVR missiles haven't proven very effective over the years. Their SAMs with RF CLOS (SA-2 and SA-3) and also SARH (SA-6 and SA-11 mostly) guidance have proven pretty dangerous. Interestingly their smaller RF guided SAMs have not fared that well (SA-8 and Pantsir systems).

I think the difference here is that those RF guided SAMs with good record are big systems with powerful radars and big missiles with enough room for guidance electronics and a big warhead. Smaller systems have less everything and this might be reason why Soviet smaller RF guided SAMs and air-to-air BVR missiles haven't had similar success.

Interestingly their IR guided weapons have always been good. SA-7 and especially SA-14/16/18 were very good MANPADS. R-60 was good missile in itself, but had short range and small warhead. R-73 was definitely one of the best IR seeking missiles before IIR missiles became available about 20 years ago. It's still a dangerous missile, but outmatched by more modern missiles like ASRAAM, IRIS-T and AIM-9X. Russia definitely needs a missile with IIR seeker and data link to stay competitive in that area.

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2020, 02:21
by eloise
In 1989, a Syrian Mig-23MLD was taken to Israel, when they tested it in a drag trip against the F-16, they found that the MLD could out accelerate the F-16. Does anyone have details about that test?, I heard the F-16 model used was F-16B but unable to find any source to confirm that

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2020, 10:59
by eloise
garrya wrote:How are those acceleration compared to F-16 and F-35?
Image

Speed of sound at 15.000 ft is 1151 km/h
Mach 0.6 = 691 km/h
Mach 0.95 = 1094 km/h
At 5 km (16.404 ft)
Mig-23 with 2000 liters of fuel and 2 R-23
With wing sweep =45, it will need 43 seconds to accelerate from 691 km/h - 1094 km/h
With wing sweep =72, it will need 38 seconds to accelerate from 691 km/h - 1094 km/h
MIG23ML-acceleration.jpg

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2020, 15:20
by sprstdlyscottsmn
You forgot to subtract the starting time.

Re: MiG-23MLD vs F-16

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2020, 03:15
by eloise
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:You forgot to subtract the starting time.

You are right
After subtracting the starting time Mig-23 with 2000 liters of fuel and 2 R-23
With wing sweep =45, it will need 38 seconds to accelerate from 691 km/h - 1094 km/h
With wing sweep =72, it will need 33 seconds to accelerate from 691 km/h - 1094 km/h