F-16 Block 60 versus EF-2000 Typhoon

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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toan

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Unread post27 Nov 2004, 16:22

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?f ... 1094285359

AFM "Singapore very impressed with the Typhoon"


http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/f ... c&start=10

(From Western Daily Press)

The Chairman of UKIP Exeter chooses to attack the Eurofighter, or Typhoon as it is called in RAF service, not because it is a bad, expensive warplane but because it is a way of attacking European co-operation (WMN, August 24).

".....................It is a very capable aircraft and better than the American F-16 he champions. In a recent competition run by Singapore to find a replacement for its F-16 fighters, Typhoon was up against the American F15E and the French Rafale. Typhoon won all three combat tests, including one in which a single Typhoon defeated three RSAF F-16s, and reliably completed all planned flight tests. According to one observer, neither competitor aircraft could claim the same (Defence Analysis August 2004)."

<b>EF-2000 v.s F-16C</b>

The data of F-16C is from http://www.mirage-jet.com/COMPAR_1/compar_1.htm

Road length for Take-off / Landing / Sea-level
F-16C: 457m / 914m (2 WVRAAM)
EF-2K: 300m / 500m (4 BVRAAM + 2 WVRAAM)

Flight-envelope
F-16C:
36,000ft (10,973m) --> Maximum speed 1.90Mach (2 WVRAAM)
49,500ft (15,088m) --> Maximum speed 1.80Mach (2 WVRAAM)

EF-2K(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM):
30,000~55,000 ft --> Maximum speed 2.00 Mach
60,000ft (18,300m) -->Maximum speed 1.85 Mach

Acceleration (36,000ft, initial speed 0.9 mach, Maximum A/B)
F-16C: accelerating to 1.75 mach in 2min and 1.86 mach in 3 min (2 WVRAAM)
EF-2K: accelerating to 2.00 mach in 2min (4 BVRAAM + 2 WVRAAM)

G-load
F-16C:9g
EF-2K: 9g (ultimate 12~15g)


Air-combat radius
F-16C: 2 AIM9 +4 AMRAAM +3 tanks: 710 nm
EF-2K: 2 ASRAAM +4 AMRAAM +2 tanks: 750 nm (10mins residual fuel)

CAP:
F-16C: 145 minutes, 150 km away from the base.
EF-2K: 180 minutes, 185 km away from the base.

Strike-radius (Hi-Lo-Lo-Hi):
F-16C: WVRAAM*2 + Mk-82*8 + one tank: 410 nm
EF-2K: WVRAAM*2 + LGB*3 + ARM*2 + Pod*1 + tank*2: 750 nm
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Unread post27 Nov 2004, 17:14

<b>EF-2000 Typhoon</b>

Width: 10.95 m
Length: 15.96 m
Height: 5.28 m
Wing Surface area: 50.0 m2
Empty weight:10,995 ~ 11,150 kg (Single seat) 11,700 kg (Double seat)
Maximum take-off weight: 23,500 kg
Standard air-combat weight: 14500kg (50% internal fuel, BVRAAM*4 and WVRAAM*2)
Internal fuel: 5,640L (Single seat) 5,300L (Double seat)

# Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 @ 11,000 m
# Maximum speed: Mach 1.15, low level
# Supercruise: Mach 1.2 ~ 1.3
# Standard air-combat configuration, 1500m height, Maximum military thrust: 0.9Mach/1050km/hr with fuel consumption 85kg/min

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/f ... .php?t=808

EADS: The EF has a super cruise capability in the Config you raised (with weapons carried) , its about 1.2 at 36KF.

Our growth strategy contains an improvement package which will boost the AC on a super cruise of about 1.5 Ma same Fight level.


#Road lenght for take off.............300~700 m
#Road length for Landing.............500~700 m
# Upper limit of ceiling: 60.000-65,000ft
#Climb rate: Standard air-combat configuration):
1. Sea-level:>315m/sec
2. From break releasing to climbing to 9,146m:86 seconds.
3. From break releasing to climbing to 10,670m, 1.5 Mach:less than 150 seconds.
4. Flug-revue, 1999, Wolfgang Schirdewahn, the Germany test-pilot:"The climibing ability of EF-2000 with 4 BVRAAM and 2 WVRAAM is about 25% better than the F-16 with 2 WVRAAM."

# Acceleration(Standard air-combat configuration):
1. 200kts --> Mach 1:<30 seconds
2. 0.9 --> 1.2M:40 seconds
3. 0.8 --> 1.4M:62 seconds

#Flight-envelop(Standard air-combat configuration):
Sea-level: 0.15~1.15 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.15~1.10 Mach)
10,000ft: 0.19~1.40 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.17~1.23 Mach)
20,000ft: 0.22~1.65 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.20~1.40 Mach)
25,000ft: 0.28~1.85 Mach
30,000ft: 0.30~2.00 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.30~1.62 Mach)
35,000ft: 0.31~2.00 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.38~1.76 Mach)
40,000ft: 0.35~2.00 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.45~1.70 Mach)
45,000ft: 0.40~2.00 Mach
50,000ft: 0.45~2.00 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.60~1.60 Mach)
55,000ft: 0.50~2.00 Mach(F/A-18C/D:0.75~1.45 Mach)
60,000ft: 0.75~1.85 Mach
65,000ft: 0.88~1.70 Mach

# G-load..................-3/+9G(Normal),+15G(Maximum)
# Instaneous turn rate/Sustaneous turn rate:30~35/>20(degree/sec)

# Agility:
1. 45,000 fts, 1.6 Mach, maximum G-load:5G.
2. Radius of turnning at low level:600m;30% less than F-15C.
3. Low level, 300kt, 7G, radius of turnning:Less than 700m (The test-pilot declared it is better than F-16, F-18, and RAFALE.)

# Combat radius (with appropriate weapons loads)
1.Strike:650km(4 BVRAAM, 2WVRAAM, and 7,000Ib bombs, lo-lo-lo)
2. Strike:1390Km(Basic loading for air-combat + LGB*3 + ARM*2 + pod*1, hi-lo-hi)
3. Air-combat:750 nm (1389 km)
4. Air-combat:100 nm(185 km),3hrs CAP

Ferry-range
1. 3700 km (tank*2)
2. 2600 km (internal fuel)
Last edited by toan on 03 Dec 2004, 09:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post27 Nov 2004, 18:37

<b>EF-2000 v.s F-16, T/W ratio at sea-level</b>

F-16A:
Empty weight 7,400 kg + 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 9400 kg, T/W ratio: 1.147(A/B)/0.704 (Maximum military thrust)

F-16 C/D with F-100-PW-229:
Empty weight 8,437~8,622 kg+ 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 10,440~10,620 kg, T/W ratio: 1.245~1.267(A/B)/0.760~0.773 (Maximum military thrust)

F-16 C/D Block60 with F-110-PW-132 (Peace time, Max. A/B 32,000 Ib, Max. military 19,000 Ib)
Empty weight 9,300~9,980 kg + 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 11,300~12,000 kg, T/W ratio: 1.210~1.285 A/B) 0.718~0.763 (Maximum military thrust)

F-16 C/D Block60 with F-110-PW-132 (War time, Max. A/B 34,000 Ib, Max. military 19,000 Ib)
Empty weight 9,300~9,980 kg + 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 11,300~12,000 kg, T/W ratio: 1.285~1.365(A/B)/0.718~0.763 (Maximum military thrust)

EF-2000 with EJ-200 (Peace time, Max. A/B 20,250 Ib, Max. military 13,500 Ib):
Empty weight 10,995~11,150 kg+ 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 13,600~14,000kg,T/W ratio: 1.312~1.350(A/B)/0.875~0.900 (Maximum military thrust)

EF-2000 with EJ-200 (War-time and the "war-set" of FADEC is removed, Max. A/B 21,370~ 22,950 Ib, Max. military 15,525 Ib):
Empty weight 10,995~11,150 kg+ 50% internal fuel + 2 WVRAAM + pilot + gun shells = 13,600~14,000kg,T/W ratio: 1.385~1.530(A/B)/1.000~1.035 (Maximum military thrust)
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Unread post27 Nov 2004, 20:12

<b>IDR:</b>

In 1998-1999, a comment from a Norwegian test pilot for the comparsion between EF-2000 and F-16 C/D block50:

Radar: The detection range of ECR-90 (Captor) is three times of AN/APG-68.

Climbing rate: With BVRAAM*4, WVRAAM*2, it takes EF-2000 90 seconds to reach 40,000 ft from the sea-level; as for F-16C in the same condition, it takes 120 seconds.

Maximum speed: With BVRAAM*4, WVRAAM*2, it is easy for EF-2000 to reach the speed of 1.8 mach+ in the medium and high level; as for F-16C in the same condition, the maximum speed is always less than 1.6 mach.

Acceleration: EF-2000 is significantly better than F-16C, especially at the range of 1.2 --> 1.6 Mach.

Combat range: The difference is not significant.


<b>CAPTOR radar</b>

<b>2004/05, magazine of AFM</b>
An UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air tracking range of CAPTOR radar is "significantly longer" than the 100 miles / 161km.

<b>2004/06, magazine of RAF</b>
The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time theoretically.

During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them.

An AESA array may be used to CAPTOR radar after 2010~2012, which will increase the detection range / tracking range of CAPTOR 50% more at least.
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Unread post27 Nov 2004, 21:19

<b>Factors for BVR combat:</b>

1. Detective range of Radar for RCS = 5m2 targets:
(http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/ ... G/PGSA.htm)
AN/APG-68: 80 km
AN/APG-80: 130km
Captor: 160~185 km (Tracking range perhaps)

2. The frontal RCS:
F-16C: 1.2 m2
EF-2K: 0.10~0.25m2

Theoretically,
the EF-2000 could detect or even track F-16C 110~130 km away.
the F-16C Block50 could detect EF-2000 30~40 km away.
the F-16C Block60 could detect EF-2000 50~65 km away.

3. SA and EW equipment: EF-2000 is better.

4. Supercruise (4BVRAAM + 2WVRAAM, 35,000~40,000 ft, maximum speed without A/B):

FA-22: 1.6~1.7 mach
(The BVRAAM's effective range will increase 60~100% comparing with the same missile used by fighter with the speed of 0.8~0.9Mach)

EF-2K: 1.2~1.3 mach
(The BVRAAM's effective range will increase 25~40% comparing with the same missile used by fighter with the speed of 0.8~0.9Mach)

F-16C: 0.8~0.9 mach

5. Flight-envelope

F-16C:
36,000ft (10,973m) --> Maximum speed 1.90Mach (2 WVRAAM)
49,500ft (15,088m) --> Maximum speed 1.80Mach (2 WVRAAM)
(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM) --> Always less than 1.60 Mach and the maximum speed for 5G maneuver is less than 1 mach.

EF-2K(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM):
30,000~55,000 ft --> Maximum speed 2.00 Mach
60,000ft (18,300m) -->Maximum speed 1.85 Mach
45,000ft (13,725m) --> 1.60 Mach plus 5G maneuver

6. Acceleration (36,000ft, initial speed 0.9 mach, Maximum A/B)
F-16C: accelerating to 1.75 mach in 2min and 1.86 mach in 3 min (2 WVRAAM)
EF-2K: accelerating to 2.00 mach in 2min (4 BVRAAM + 2 WVRAAM)

7. Climbing rate:
With BVRAAM*4, WVRAAM*2, it takes EF-2000 90 seconds to reach 40,000 ft from the sea-level; as for F-16C in the same condition, it takes 120 seconds.

Most data about EF-2000 that I mentioned above can be found in:
  • http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/geschichte.htm
  • http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/daten.htm
  • http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/sensorik.htm
  • http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.html
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Unread post02 Dec 2004, 06:52

EF-2000 v.s F-35

Aviation Week and Space Technoledge (AW&ST) 1999/02/15

An article about JSF mentioned:
  • The frontal RCS of F-22 is about -30 dB (0.001m2)
  • The frontal RCS of JSF is slightly larger than F-22 and about the same size as golf ball.
  • The frontal RCS of F-15 is about 20 dB (11m2)
According to this article, I think the minimal frontal RCS of F-35 for USA and UK use is about 0.002~0.005m2 class perhaps.

However, it is said that USA will down-grade the stealthy capability of F-35 for exportation. Take integrating AIM-9X to F-35 for example, USA will give F-35 for exportation external pylons for firing AIM-9X, and while this procedure will improve F-35s WVR capability definitely one way, it will reduce F-35 for exportations stealthy capability significantly in another. According to my assumption, I think the F-35 for exportations minimal frontal RCS will be in 0.01m2~0.1m2 class.

<b>CAPTOR radar</b>

2004/05, magazine of AFM
An UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air tracking range of CAPTOR radar is significantly longer than the 100 miles / 161km.

2004/06, magazine of RAF
The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time theoretically.

EADS:
During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them.

The RCS of Mig-29 is about 5m2 class, so these informations may hint that CAPTOR radar now can track (not just detect) RCS = 5m2 class target 160~185 km away. According to the basic formula for the relationship between Targets RCS and Radars effective detective / tracking range:

The effective tracking range of CAPTOR to F-35 for USA and UK use (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.002~0.005m2 class) should be 23~32 km at least.

The effective tracking range of CAPTOR to F-35 for exportation (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.01~0.1 m2 class) should be 35~70 km at least.

According to the PDF at http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

The figure in page 15 showed that the CAPTOR with AESA-upgrades detective / tracking range is about 75% longer than the CAPTOR radar now.

So in 2010~2015:
  • The effective tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F-35 for USA and UK use (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.002~0.005m2 class) should be 40~56 km at least.
  • The effective tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F-35 for for exportation (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.01~0.1 m2 class) should be 60~120 km at least.
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Unread post18 Apr 2006, 13:28

I guess F-16 is no match for the Typhoon.

Here is F-16 As flight envelope:
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f16-sust.jpg
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Unread post18 Apr 2006, 15:19

Of course the Typhoon is a more capable plane... It's new! Delta wings have low trans/supersonic drag, semi-ressesed weapons lower drag, and two thrusty engines on a tiny airframe pretty much guarentee faster climbs and accelerations. Thyphoon is a hell of a hotrod.
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Unread post18 Apr 2006, 16:41

I would hope a jet that is just entering service would be better than a jet that has been in service for over 20 years. And winning an intercept has as much to do with tactics as does capablity
Harrumph!!!
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Unread post18 Apr 2006, 18:10

I would hope a jet that is just entering service would be better than a jet that has been in service for over 20 years. And winning an intercept has as much to do with tactics as does capablity
Harrumph!!!
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Unread post19 Apr 2006, 13:58

EF-2000 v.s F-22A in 1G flight-envelop:

http://photo.pchome.com.tw/chentoan/114 ... #thisImage

1. The data of EF-2000 was from a Austrian Eurofighter web-site.
(http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/daten.htm)

2. The data of F-22A was from a military magazine in my country last year with unknown accuracy.



http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/faq.htm

Wendigkeit - Wie wendig ist ein Eurofighter Typhoon? Kann man bei Überschallgeschwindigkeiten noch rechtzeitig vor der Staatsgrenze umdrehen ?
Der Eurofighter Typhoon ist was die Wendigkeit betrifft eine Klasse für sich.
Im Unterschallbereich ist das Flugzeug instabil in der Längsbewegung und fliegt bei hohen Unterschall-Geschwindigkeiten Kurvendiameter von wenigen hundert Metern.
Im Überschallbereich ist das Flugzeug instabil in der Seitenbewegung - bei Mach 1,5 kann ein Kurvendiameter von 6 km ohne Geschwindigkeitsverlust geflogen werden.


Agility - as an Eurofighter Typhoon is agile? Can one turn with supersonic speeds still in time before the state border?

The Eurofighter Typhoon is which the agility concerns a class for itself. In the subsonic region the airplane is unstable in the longitudinal movement and flies with high subsonic speeds curve dia. meters of few hundred meters. In the supersonic range the airplane is unstable in the lateral movement - with Mach 1.5 a curve diameter can be flown by 6 km without losing speed.


A:
According to the formula of BFM, Turning raduis = Speed * Speed / G-loading.

# Turning radius = 3 km = 3000 meters.
# Speed = 1.5 Mach = about 440~442 meters/sec at 35,000~50,000 fts.

Then the G-loading should be 440~442 * 440~442 / 3000 = 64.5~65.1 meter / sec2 --> About 6.6G
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Unread post19 Apr 2006, 14:54

sustained 6.6 G turn at 1.5 Mach, thats nice. I bet the Raptor could do that too.
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Unread post19 Apr 2006, 14:59

According to an unconfirmed information from a military web-site, a man who had declared himself as a Raptor pilot said that Raptor could be pulled up to 7G without losing speed in the supersonic condition.

Another information from RAF pilots for EF-2000 declared that it can be pulled up to 5~6 G with the sustained speed of Mach 1.6 at the height of 45,000 fts.

As for the 5G flight envelop of Raptor, according to the magazine that I mentioned above:

http://photo.pchome.com.tw/chentoan/114546041726/

F-22A v.s F-16A, 5G flight envelop
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Unread post25 Apr 2006, 16:10

if I read the graph correctly both aircraft are able to maintain 5g @mach 1.2 at sea level???
Unbelievable!
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Unread post26 Apr 2006, 20:50

whys that? Speed is so high that CL for a 5 G pull would be very low, thus decreasing induced drag. the turn would also occur at a very low AOA and as such most of the thrust would be available to push forward, also AB thrust increases with speed.
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