MiG-31 vs F-16 - BVR engagement

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2004, 20:31
by nastle2000
Hello guys this is my first post!

In the mid 1990s Russians operated a lot of MiG-31s. My question is, how would these interceptors fare against the F-16s of a third world nation (eg. Egypt or Turkey) in a BVR engagement. My understanding is that in the mid 1990s Egyptian F-16s were not equipped with the AIM-120 and probably only with AIM-7(which has a much inferior range than a AA-9).

Remember, Ii am only asking for the results of a BVR engagement, in
dogfight we all know who the winner will be.

Thank you.

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2004, 23:51
by lamoey
I wonder if this battle woudn't end up as a draw? The Foxhound may see the Viper on his radar earlier, but the Viper will know that he is being observed by a Foxhound, with its monster missiles, and will probably reconsider available options, and stay out of range if possible. Obviously as long as he stays out of range he can't fire anything back, so the whole meeting only takes place within the avionincs.

Houston, Tx +21C/70F :?

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2004, 23:54
by DeepSpace
I think I'll go with Fintonov.

The MiG-31 has the SBI-16 Zaslon, maybe the most powerful radar for fighters. The two R-15BD-300
engines will give the MiG 11,015 LB of power each and a max speed of MACH 2.83, and that's before we staretd to talk about the AA-9 (R-33) with the range of 160 KM.

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 00:22
by nastle2000
Thank you guys this is pretty much what I thought ... the big and powerful MiG will prevail in a long range battle in which avionics will be decisive. Although I can't understand why the Russians kept so many Foxhounds operational in the post cold war era (425! according to military balance 1996-97) when the Fulcrums and Flankers were clearly better suited to tactical needs of their airforce...

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 00:26
by lamoey
Radar and Range is my guess

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 13:59
by Phoenix
Yeah, it's always nice to have something that can swat people out of the sky at great ranges...

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 18:05
by nastle2000
How difficult would it be for a F-16 to evade the salvo of AA-9s? And why do the Russians have Aphids and Archers on the Foxhound? Is it really any good in an air-superority role?

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 19:37
by Dammerung
I would assume, for two Reasons.

First, if an Enemy Fighter gets in Close, without those, it's toast.
Second, if it needs to make visual ID, I'd think using an R-33 would be a waste at that range...

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 23:02
by nastle2000
so the short range AAMs are for "self-defence".
can a MiG-31 carry the AA-10 cuz if it can it probably has a good chance of scoring a hit against agile fighters(like F-16s)

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 23:27
by Dammerung
No, it only carries the R-33, R-60, and GSh-6-32... I can't see any other reason, as the R-60 has a Max Range of only 8km... It can't carry the R-73 either...

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2004, 23:36
by nastle2000
Thanks dammerrung... so against agile targets the MiG-31 only relies on its cannon and the R-60? As I think the AA-9 is not very good against fighters . correct me if I am wrong.

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 00:35
by CheckSix
I've also seen R-77 underwing a MiG-31. It would be logical, even the simple MiG-29S can operate them, why not the 31E/M?

1 vs 1 there is hardly a chance for F-16 evading 4 R-33E's, and maybe R-77s. and even if F-16 comes close, MiG-31 is some 1000km/h faster.
Chasing an MiG-31 Aim-120 range would shrink to 5 km or so.

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2004, 12:38
by Hookturn
nastle2000 wrote:although I cant understand why the russians kept so many foxhounds operational in the post cold war era (425! according to military balance 1996-97)when the fulcrums and flankers were clearly better suited to tactical needs of their airforce.
thanks


The vast Siberian tundra was the reason why. The tundra was considered as a natural ingress route for the US bombers, so they needed a long range plane capable of high speed interception with minimal GCI support. Flankers and Fulcrums are no use (and probably always bingoed) without GCI support far away from their operating bases in the tundra.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 02:51
by Dammerung
The R-77's range is classified, but it's not a megastick like the R-33. F-16 could nail it with an AMRAAM for sure at R-77 range. Also, only the MiG-31M carries R-77. The R-33 Most likely is like the AIM-54, a bomber-killer. Also, A fighter hardly ever travels at Top speed, the MiG-31 would be out of fuel and out of options if he tried to outrun an AIM-120 at close range. It would take maybe 2-3 mins to get to top speed.

Also, the MiG-29S is the most advanced Fulcrum to my knowledge. Keep in mind also, the AIM-120 is a Mach 4 Missile. The MiG would have to make a 180 deg turn(do it fast and you dump all of your E), and then accel to max speed, dumping probably all of his fuel to outrun it... Probably better just to risk beaming and then dodge- I believe the MiG-31 has the SPO-15 Beryoza RWR, and it will pick up ARH Missiles, and make it easier to time a missile evasion...

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 03:01
by nastle2000
Guys, my original question was about a BVR fight b/w a MiG-31 and an F-16 NOT equipped with AIM-120, as I pointed out earlier it is set in mid -1990s when F-16s of middle eastern nations did not have AIM-120 (isreal got its AIM-120 in 1998 ).....in this scenario I think fintonov, checksix are right the big and powerful MiG will be at an advantage as long as it keeps its distance (AIM-7 and AIM-9 will be useless at these ranges) and use its AA-9

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 08:12
by CheckSix
@Dammerung:

At Full Afterburner, F-16 exhausts its fuel in about 8mins. MiG-31 has 16,5 tons of fuel onboard, and proved to fly some 2000kms at mach 2,5+ ;-)

It's a strategic interceptor.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 16:57
by Dammerung
That's 15000~kg, not much more than the Su-27, I seriously doubt that the MiG-31 could fly THAT long at top speed. Maybe 5 minutes, but Especially considering the nature of MiGs in general(MiG-29 has about 3 minutes at full burner before it's done). I just checked FAS.org and it's max Range is 1250km... If I had to guess, Once the MiG gets you on his radar, you're probably toast. I would think it would intercept BOMBERS however, at speeds near mach 1.5... If it could cruise that far and that fast, the SR-71 wouldn't look so great.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 17:18
by Skyjock
It's very interesting to read the various views on 1v1 here...and it's also
almost inconcievable that ANYONE would salvo 4 or more missiles at any one target, thus opening himself up for attack with nothing left!

Here, however, is a fact no one has mentioned yet: During Desert Storm, an attack "package" observed an Iraqi MiG-25 coming their way, and they chased it. It outran them easily, and they returned to heading. The MiG reversed, and nailed an F/A-18 Hornet...
which the Navy denied for many years after.

Speed CAN be very useful, and many times far better than a knife-fighting ability...remember the P-38 vs. A6M?

I do NOT know what missiles the MiG used... anybody knows?

Dan S.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 17:51
by CheckSix
@Dammerung

1250km Interception range supersonically.
Su-27 has 9,4 tons
F-16 has 3,2 tons
MiG-31: 16,5 tons

MiG-31s top speed is mach 2,83 with in case of emergency mach3+

FAS.org gives the numbers and engine desigantions for the elder MiG-25.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2004, 18:15
by elp
BVR. Be interesting. MiG-31 has some reach. Remember though, that:

-RU BVR so far has a bad combat record.

-What makes the F-16 great is also a great maintenance community. RuAF enlisted force is in the dumps. Expecting all that fancy gear on a MiG-31 to work when needed is a reach, espeially when the guy responsible for maintaining its avionics is more concerned with his second job as a taxi driver :lol: Good luck. I wouldn't want to bet my life flying on a maintenance coummity like that.

WVR: Yet another jet with crap visibility from the cockpit to be matched up against an F-16? :lol: :lol: When you have problems looking at your rear hemisphere because of the cockpit setup,.... in WVR..... you are going to be in serious trouble. Also the MiG-31 is just a bit smaller than a shorty version of a 737 ( 100, 500, and 600 series ).... :lol: :lol:

Tally! :lol:

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2005, 03:29
by ACSheva
RU BVR so far has a bad combat record


what record?

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2005, 09:38
by kubam4a1
If we have C/D model without either APG-68V9 or APG-80 radar, and without AIM-120 AMMRAMs, it has no chance against MiG-31. MiG's radar has a range of about 120 kms, and Viper's - only 80 kms(but Viper has smaller RCS of course). Secondly, when using AIM-7, Viper must fly a straight way until it hits MiG-31. Foxhound can attack four targets at one time, and then escape, because AA-9 are self-homing with active radar. Thirdly, MiG-31 is much more faster than Viper.

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2005, 17:45
by nastle2000
I agree w/o the AIM-120 despite its agility the viper has no chance against the MIG.

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2005, 22:25
by Pumpkin
ACSheva wrote:
RU BVR so far has a bad combat record


what record?


I believe elp was referring to the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict. The BVR fights between the Su-27 & MiG-29 (piloted by Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries) where 'salvo' of R-27/AA-10 missile fired by both side failed. And confirmed kills were made only by the R-73/AA-11.

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2005, 10:35
by kubam4a1
But R-33 is much more better than R-27. It's active-radar homing. MiG-31 can fire missles at four target one time while MiG-29A/Su-27SK only at one... R-33 is similar to Phoenix, but Foxhound has also AMRAMMskis. Finally, Foxhound was designed not to fight with F-16Cs, but to shot down cruise missiles.

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2005, 11:20
by Pumpkin
kubam4a1 wrote:But R-33 is much more better than R-27. It's active-radar homing. MiG-31 can fire missles at four target one time while MiG-29A/Su-27SK only at one... R-33 is similar to Phoenix, but Foxhound has also AMRAMMskis. Finally, Foxhound was designed not to fight with F-16Cs, but to shot down cruise missiles.


kubam4a1, I guess our point was...

specification is what manufacturers claimed the product can perform. Record on the other hand is how the product actually performed. It is by no means certain of course. But, it is the track record of the product.

In a nut shell, it is not combat proven. {EDIT} Or in the case of R-27, it was combat proven, it ain't lethal in that particular conflict.

cheers,

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2005, 11:28
by kubam4a1
I understand,
And I hope it'll never be combat proven....

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2005, 04:12
by renatohm
Well, the R-33/R-37 have well over 100 km range, over twice the range of the AMRAAM. The SBI-16 Zaslon AESA (Active Ellectronically Scanned Array) radar has far more range than the Viper's radars (except maybe the block 60). So, in a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) battle, the Foxhound wins, if not by shootdown, by evasion. The same happened with the Tomcat + Phoenix during Desert Storm: the Iraqis simply evaded the Tomcat, which was unable to score a single kill - although we may consider these 'almost engagement' as victories, due to the fact that no fighter hassled the units scorted by the F-14. Also, the R-77 has a longer (publicly stated) range than the AMRAAM, specially if we consider the better kinematics of the Foxhound, which might not require AB (AfterBurner) to go supersonic.

In WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, no discussion, the Viper wins.

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2005, 04:50
by MATMACWC
And what about the F-16 with only drop tanks to unload on a MIG, and the MIG with the Supercalifragilousexpialidocious missile??? Please folks, reality is reality. F-16 have AMRAAMS, MIGS suck big ol' donkey.....well, you know. Lets not tie any fake hands here..........

Up and Out

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2005, 12:30
by CheckSix
amraam range drops to 5 miles, chasing a MiG-31.
In one to one engagement, I'd favour a MiG-31M.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2005, 05:01
by MATMACWC
So says Willy Wonka???????? Where do you folks get your info???????