F-16 Viper versus F-18 Hornet

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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johnwill

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Unread post19 Oct 2013, 21:23

Here are the facts. Wing plus fuselage center of lift is forward of the CG at speeds below 0.95 mach. To balance the airplane, the horizontal tail load is up (positive). That is for cruise or maneuvering. That means without the tail load, the airplane would pitch up. Unstable.

During transition from 1g cruise to a pull up or turn, there is a very brief time where the tail has a down load increment to get the pitch rate positive. But once the pitch rate starts, the unstable airplane wants to pitch up on its own, so the tail load goes positive again to control g.

Above 0.95 mach, the fuselage plus wing center of lift shifts aft of the CG, reversing the required tail load to balance the airplane, cruise or maneuvering. The shift is quite abrupt, starting at 0.93 mach and completed by 0.96 mach.

Also at 0.95 mach, the flaperons begin a transition to 2 degrees up, completed at 1.05 mach. That incremental down flap load relieves the need for so much down tail load and reduces trim drag.
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exfltsafety

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Unread post20 Oct 2013, 00:47

All of Joe Bill Dryden's articles can be found at http://www.codeonemagazine.com/magazine_detail.html?item_id=101. Use the pull down list to browse past issues at upper right. The first one in the list is the Semper Viper Special Issue with Joe Bill's articles. Select it and then select View as PDF. His article on Aerodynamics starts on page 7.
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zero-one

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Unread post21 Oct 2013, 12:12

So I guess all US fighter designes since the F-16 had relaxed Static Stability

By the way regarding the review by JOHN "TooNCES" TOUGAS of the F-16 vs the F/A-18, I always wondered if he was a bit biased towards the Hornet since he was first and formost a Navy pilot,

Also he described that one of his reasons was due to the Hornet's more advanced Avionics, However F-16s are still in production and wouldn't the new F-16 blocks have more advanced sensors and avionics than the legacy Hornet variants.

Hope someone can shed some light on this
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neurotech

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Unread post21 Oct 2013, 15:42

See above for the description of the F-16 aerodynamics.

Both the F/A-18E/F and the F-16C/D are still in production. If the EA-18Gs are included, more F/A-18 series jets are currently being produced than F-16C/Ds.

Early on, the F/A-18 had better cockpit multi-function displays and layout. The F/A-18C introduced color MFDs on a production fighter. The F-16C Block 50s (and MLU jets) have similar displays now.

The production F/A-18E/F has AESA radar and further upgraded avionics. With the exception of the Block 60 jets for UAE, no production F-16 has AESA radar. This may be changing if the F-16V Block 70 goes into production. AESA upgrades are also an option for current F-16s
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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 03:26

having fought a hornet in a block 40 i'll chime in with my 2 cents. The hornet has one big AOA move. I.E. it can point VERY quickly only once. In an F-16, if you can survive (flare/min range) it's missles, it is a giant pig in space after the one move. point right at it to min range and then go straight up...the hornet can do nothing about that except watch you go and realize he is about to die in the next 6-9 seconds....my 2 cents.

Long range?? yes the AESA hornets will kill every viper out there until the f-16 gets it's own aesa. Legacy hornets? no problem...I think that navy guys spend most of their time trying to get back aboard their bo aat safely versus focusing on tactics. I would too if that was my only base and landing on it is tough as hell.
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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 07:57

deadseal wrote:having fought a hornet in a block 40 i'll chime in with my 2 cents. The hornet has one big AOA move. I.E. it can point VERY quickly only once. In an F-16, if you can survive (flare/min range) it's missles, it is a giant pig in space after the one move. point right at it to min range and then go straight up...the hornet can do nothing about that except watch you go and realize he is about to die in the next 6-9 seconds....my 2 cents.

Long range?? yes the AESA hornets will kill every viper out there until the f-16 gets it's own aesa. Legacy hornets? no problem...I think that navy guys spend most of their time trying to get back aboard their bo aat safely versus focusing on tactics. I would too if that was my only base and landing on it is tough as hell.

Hornets (like every other jet) have to maintain their energy state, and doing high AoA moves bleeds energy fast. I've watched video of nuggets getting close to below Cessna stall speed in a dogfight. The Navy F/A-18s get to practice against F-16s at NSAWC (TOPGUN) and learn how counter the F-16 (or MiG-29) in a dogfight.

The F-14A Tomcat was considered harder to land than the Hornet. The F404 engines are pretty responsive behind the boat. The Super Hornet is more stable and has even better engines. Usually squadron workups consist of tactical training, then they shift focus to FCLPs before going for Carrier Quals.
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Des

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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 14:15

deadseal wrote:having fought a hornet in a block 40 i'll chime in with my 2 cents. The hornet has one big AOA move. I.E. it can point VERY quickly only once. In an F-16, if you can survive (flare/min range) it's missles, it is a giant pig in space after the one move. point right at it to min range and then go straight up...the hornet can do nothing about that except watch you go and realize he is about to die in the next 6-9 seconds....my 2 cents.


Even if the Hornet's got aim-9x missilies?
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deadseal

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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 14:30

Des wrote:
deadseal wrote:having fought a hornet in a block 40 i'll chime in with my 2 cents. The hornet has one big AOA move. I.E. it can point VERY quickly only once. In an F-16, if you can survive (flare/min range) it's missles, it is a giant pig in space after the one move. point right at it to min range and then go straight up...the hornet can do nothing about that except watch you go and realize he is about to die in the next 6-9 seconds....my 2 cents.


Even if the Hornet's got aim-9x missilies?


that is a problem...but then so do I :wink:
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deadseal

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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 14:32

typically bfm is fought with legacy missiles as valid for a kill. otherwise we would all kill each other with 9-Xs at the fights-on and the world would end
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Unread post24 Oct 2013, 14:40

deadseal wrote:having fought a hornet in a block 40 i'll chime in with my 2 cents. The hornet has one big AOA move. I.E. it can point VERY quickly only once. In an F-16, if you can survive (flare/min range) it's missles, it is a giant pig in space after the one move. point right at it to min range and then go straight up...the hornet can do nothing about that except watch you go and realize he is about to die in the next 6-9 seconds....my 2 cents.


Well, that One Big High AOA move can be a very effective"Coup de Grace" manuever for Rhino pilots, if they know exactly when to use it

But if you're not sure it would work, you can probably do many smaller high AOA maneuvers to keep your energy up.

I Love the Comparison between the Loaded Rhino and Loaded Flanker on Youtbe where both planes where pulling High AOA maneuvers,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gX_vZB-2nE?

while the Flanker was pulling a bit more, it was apparent that it had to put its nose down after every big High AOA maneuver to regain lost energy

The Rhino on the other hand simply leveled off after pulling a smaller yet considerably High AOA maneuver.

There was one where the Rhino seemed to pull a Cobra, but didn't get passed 90 AOA, maybe 70-80 degrees, but it had the same effect, quick deceleration
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Unread post26 Oct 2013, 01:02

neat video. Always love the squared loop.
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deadseal

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Unread post26 Oct 2013, 03:11

I love how the video says "dogfight" when its clear that whoever put that together doesn't know sh*t about dogfighting. Those moves are suicide. any fighter pilot on your six would gun your ****** brains out when you try that.The only time I think that an all out stop would be adventegous is in a 1 circle fight, but you wouldn't have the energy for that any way if you were forced 1 circle. If you were the 2nd guy to turn and force the 1 circle, you gave up turing room and the other guy can just go vertical when that happens.I guess what I am trying to say is that the world is not just airshow pet tricks, but is energy and energy recognition. oh and the 9x of course
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Unread post26 Oct 2013, 09:08

deadseal wrote:I love how the video says "dogfight" when its clear that whoever put that together doesn't know sh*t about dogfighting. Those moves are suicide. any fighter pilot on your six would gun your ****** brains out when you try that.The only time I think that an all out stop would be adventegous is in a 1 circle fight, but you wouldn't have the energy for that any way if you were forced 1 circle. If you were the 2nd guy to turn and force the 1 circle, you gave up turing room and the other guy can just go vertical when that happens.I guess what I am trying to say is that the world is not just airshow pet tricks, but is energy and energy recognition. oh and the 9x of course


Ofcourse in these Airshows, they don't only show the maneuvers significant in combat, but also a demonstration of the plane's aerodynamic limits.

Most of those maneuvers will definitely get you killed if used the wrong way, but it demonstrates that these aircraft can sustain controlled flight at those attitudes,

In a dogfight, that can be crucial
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Unread post26 Oct 2013, 15:37

true
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Unread post26 Oct 2013, 15:57

what I got ou of the video is that a SHornet can pull maneuvers that are 80+% of a Flanker maneuver and not fall down afterward. This translates to better energy retention and low dynamic pressure control ability. Definitely a great show for the Rhino, better than any I have seen in person.
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