Four F-16s vs one F/A-22

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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Cad

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Unread post16 Jun 2007, 17:12

GCI allmost never leads his fighters head on ,that would be stupid.
more often fighters are directed behind the intruder or to his flank.
head on intercept was necesary for high speed intruders like sr-71 or mig-25r but it`s not a good ideea against a fighter.
"You win again, gravity!"
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danhutmacher

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Unread post17 Jun 2007, 06:08

I hate to break it to you but the F-22 CAN be tracked by radar. All lowering your RCS does is make it harder for a radar to track you. A radar that can detect a plane like the f-16 at one hundred miles should be able to detect the F-22 at around thirty miles.
Also the F-22s radar transmits a detectable signal every time it transmits. The fact that each of the modules transmits on a different frequency makes it harder to pick up the signals. But they can be picked up.
So a GCI net can be built to track an F-22.
Then it's just a matter of using that info.
I have also heard several reports that eurofighter was able to get a lock on an F-22 at around eighty miles.
Then of course there is the fact that the Russians have built an AESA type radar for the Mig-35.
So when it comes down to it the F-22 is NOT invincible. Of course the bigger problem will be with the slammer. but that is a different can of worms.
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Cad

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Unread post20 Jun 2007, 14:57

CAESAR AESA(EF-2000 Tranch3, post-2015 with 1,500 T/Rs):

For RCS 0.0001 m2 class target: 18~21 km+
For RCS 0.001 m2 class target: 32~38 km+
For RCS 0.1 m2 class target: 104~122 km+
For RCS 1.0 m2 class target: 185~216 km+
For RCS 5.0 m2 class target: 278~324 km+
For RCS 10.0 m2 class target: 330~385 km+

eurofighter rcs=0.2 m2 raptor rcs=0.0001 m2
i WOULD say eurofighter has a better chance with IRST THAN his radar
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post25 Jun 2007, 01:24

I have also heard several reports that eurofighter was able to get a lock on an F-22 at around eighty miles.
Then of course there is the fact that the Russians have built an AESA type radar for the Mig-35.


LOL! Oh, that's rich... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Cad

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Unread post25 Jun 2007, 20:41

is it still political correct to join the Islamic movement in Chechnya if u wanna fight the Russians ?
our would that be a terrorist act ???
:offtopic:
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danhutmacher

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Unread post28 Jun 2007, 09:26

For those that doubt whether the Russians can build an AESA type radar check out page 86 in the may 2007 combat aircraft magazine.
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akruse21

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Unread post28 Jun 2007, 10:05

build it yes, mass produce is a different story.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post28 Jun 2007, 11:12

Scorpion1alpha wrote:
I have also heard several reports that eurofighter was able to get a lock on an F-22 at around eighty miles.
Then of course there is the fact that the Russians have built an AESA type radar for the Mig-35.


LOL! Oh, that's rich... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


It did, only the Rapoter was carrying external tanks.
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avon1944

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Unread post02 Jul 2007, 02:25

danhutmacher wrote:the F-22s radar transmits a detectable signal every time it transmits. The fact that each of the modules transmits on a different frequency makes it harder to pick up the signals. But they can be picked up.

The problem is recognizing the transmissions as an intelligent signal rather than random noise. Each pulse being a different frequency across several frequency bands, each pulse being at a different power level, plus the source of the noise being on the move makes the signal appear as random noise. As of now, there are no RWR systems that can recognize the signal as a radar transmission.
Read some of the postings on this web board, the opposition dies without knowing they were being targeted. This is just one, URL;
F-16 Versus the F-22 By Vprwzl -3rd post on the page (04/17/05)
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... bc383fa95f


danhutmacher wrote:"I have also heard several reports that eurofighter was able to get a lock on an F-22 at around eighty miles."
Pilotasso wrote:It did, only the Rapoter was carrying external tanks.

I didn't know they were exercising together, any source or further information on this?

Adrian
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danhutmacher

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Unread post03 Jul 2007, 05:09

As near as I can tell the typhoons were being tested here in the states and the raptors just happened to be in the area. But the whole thing had been very vague.
If any one knows more I would be happy to hear what they know.
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crobato

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Unread post03 Jul 2007, 08:01

The problem is recognizing the transmissions as an intelligent signal rather than random noise. Each pulse being a different frequency across several frequency bands, each pulse being at a different power level, plus the source of the noise being on the move makes the signal appear as random noise. As of now, there are no RWR systems that can recognize the signal as a radar transmission.


Not really. If the RWR is open to a whole band of signals, jumping within that band with high power pulses may still trigger a RWR. Frequency jumping is also increasingly being used in air defense and air search radars, so modern RWRs are going to be tuned for these no matter what. The pulses would have to be coded somehow in order for the home radar to know it is the valid signal and not processing random signals. Since you're going to code the signals somehow, you will get into another phase necessarily for LPI transmission, which is pulse compression. With that, the radar would have to be using pulse compression in order to get the high range resolution without the high peak power.

All this simply means it gives clues to what future RWRs will look for. What may fool a RWR of the past, may not fool a RWR in the near future. And that's precisely why we upgrade electronics all the time. It is always a moving target, which you can never be or say you will be secure even for a period of time.
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danhutmacher

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Unread post07 Jul 2007, 07:05

how do we know for sure that no current rwr can detect the F-22s radar? Even if it can't its only a matter of time before one can.
Besides, there are other ways to track an F-22.
I still think that the biggest problem with the F-22 is not the aircraft itself but the Aim-120. So far in the combat firings that the aim-120 has had it has shown a forty-sixty percent PK. And that's with the bad guys not using ECM and flying VERY STUPIDLY.
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Unread post07 Jul 2007, 15:27

yugoslav jastreb and orao don't carry RWS OR ECM so there is no way they could have flown any brighter.
i don't know want you consider stupid flying but in real life u don't get the chance to train against incoming missiles like in SIM.
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avon1944

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Unread post08 Jul 2007, 00:24

danhutmacher wrote:how do we know for sure that no current rwr can detect the F-22s radar?

One of the consistent things that is mentioned when interviewing pilots who have exercised against F-22's are the statements, I never knew where he (the F-22) was or, something to the statement that they never knew they were under attack until the controller contacted them to announce they had been shot down. That included the E-3 Sentry and its two F-15C escorts!

danhutmacher wrote:Even if it can't its only a matter of time before one can.

TRUE.... such is real life in the ECM versus ECCM contest or world.


Cad wrote:in real life u don't get the chance to train against incoming missiles like in SIM.

No, there is no way of duplicating the gut wrenching fear and reactions of seeing a missile contrail headings your way. There are ways in which you can simulate the usage of tactics to remain the a 'low probability' of hit area of the missile's envelope.
The infantry trains in how best to respond or tactics used when a platoon or squad gets caught in an ambush. It is the best way to insure the casualties will be as low as possible, under the situation.

Adrian
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danhutmacher

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Unread post11 Jul 2007, 01:17

What about the Iraqi Migs? What happens if the enemy DOES have rwr? If the Pk of the amraam is that low against fighters WITHOUT RWR what will it be against fighters that HAVE it and are TRAINED to use it?
Everybody seems to swallow the line that the F-22 is invincible but IT IS NOT!
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