F-14s against an F-16 and F-15 strike package

[asianviper]

I have been hearing alot on the news about possible Israeli air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities. Im not interested in the political rights or wrongs of such a mission. I was just wondering weather anyone has an opinion on if the Iranian F-14s have any chance against an F-16 and F-15 strike package??

[southernphantom]

(Are we talking F-15I strikers, or F-16Is? What's escorting and what's hitting?)

I think we have three options here, each of which have distinct outcomes:
A) The IRIAF has only stock F-14As, and their AIM-54s are all either expended or unusable. The Israeli strike package competently defeats AIM-7 shots with AIM-120s fired from Vipers or Eagles.
B) Iran has maintained all or some remaining Phoenix rounds in operating condition, and the AWG-9s on the F-14s are properly functioning. The outcome of this scenario revolves around whether or not the Israeli aircraft have ECM/RWR suites that can detect incoming AIM-54s. If so, Israeli aircraft win the day. If not, one or two could conceivably be taken down.
C) The F-14As have been substantially upgraded with Russian and/or PRC weapons and radar. They could be carrying anything from AIM-7, AIM-9, AA-10, AA-11, AA-12, to PL-12. This is without a doubt the worst-case scenario, as it involves aircraft with the closest thing Iran has to parity with a Western air force. The IDF/AF could sustain losses in this case, but would likely still be able to complete the strike.

Of course, all of these scenarios assume proper operability, weapons reliability, and aircrew training on the part of the IRIAF- none of which can be taken for granted with a 30-40-year-old airframe that hasn't had manufacturer maintenance for decades.

[asianviper]

My opinion would be for a strike mission like this it would be more logical to have the F15I Raam as escorts due to their longer range radar capability and the F16I Sufa in the strike role. . I would think if you are flying a mission against an opponent that has an aircraft like an F14 you would want to have as much warning as possible and get that all important first shot in. Im not too sure about the how many F14s the Iranians would be able to muster to intercept the incoming aircraft though.
I imagine the Iranians would use a possible AIM-54 and AIM-7 combination so that they could would use the longer range AIM-54 to take the F15/F16s out. Would the AIM-54 still be as effective due to their relative age and Iranian mantenance? I think once the fight got close enough for the Israeli aircraft to use their AMRAAMs it would be curtains for the IRIAF F14s.

I think youre right to question the other factors as well because no matter how you paint the picture there would be a big question mark on IRIAF quality in terms of air crew training, maintenance of the aircraft their radars and weapons. I also think the Israeli airforce would have a siginificant edge in all these areas .
Its interesting that you say they could arm the F14s with Russian or chinese missiles, is such a thing normal? Would the AWG-9 even be compatible with the AA-12 or PL-12?

Could an F14 ever hold its own or beat an F15? I think the the US Navy F14s and the airforce F15s must have tangled in exercises? At long range the F14 I think would have an edge but at wvr the eagle would easily come out on top, especially if the F15 was DASH equipped and armed with Python 5. I think if this scenario played out for real in all probability the IAF could complete the mission with minimum if any losses.

[madrat]

Personally my opinion, but the outcome is more than likely a turkey shoot. The F-14A's don't have a chance, probably wouldn't even see one on the egress. I'd be more worried about the F-4's in their service than the F-14's.

[southernphantom]

My opinion would be for a strike mission like this it would be more logical to have the F15I Raam as escorts due to their longer range radar capability and the F16I Sufa in the strike role. . I would think if you are flying a mission against an opponent that has an aircraft like an F14 you would want to have as much warning as possible and get that all important first shot in. Im not too sure about the how many F14s the Iranians would be able to muster to intercept the incoming aircraft though.
I imagine the Iranians would use a possible AIM-54 and AIM-7 combination so that they could would use the longer range AIM-54 to take the F15/F16s out. Would the AIM-54 still be as effective due to their relative age and Iranian mantenance? I think once the fight got close enough for the Israeli aircraft to use their AMRAAMs it would be curtains for the IRIAF F14s.

I think youre right to question the other factors as well because no matter how you paint the picture there would be a big question mark on IRIAF quality in terms of air crew training, maintenance of the aircraft their radars and weapons. I also think the Israeli airforce would have a siginificant edge in all these areas .
Its interesting that you say they could arm the F14s with Russian or chinese missiles, is such a thing normal? Would the AWG-9 even be compatible with the AA-12 or PL-12?

Could an F14 ever hold its own or beat an F15? I think the the US Navy F14s and the airforce F15s must have tangled in exercises? At long range the F14 I think would have an edge but at wvr the eagle would easily come out on top, especially if the F15 was DASH equipped and armed with Python 5. I think if this scenario played out for real in all probability the IAF could complete the mission with minimum if any losses.

I vaguely remember something like the Russian/Chinese ordnance, but know for a fact that the IRIAF has mounted AGM-78s and MIM-23s on aircraft, possibly as AAMs, so it seems reasonable to assume that their engineering prowess is decent. If this is true, we may have a bit of a problem, but standoff weapons would quite possibly allow launch and escape before the Iranians have even launched. The whole thing depends on what the Iranians are hanging on those Turkeys- probably -54s, -7s, and a handful of weird things. It's the weird things that worry me.

[asianviper]

Thinking about it i dont see what else they could put on the F14s that would really change the outcome. I think personally that the IRAF would have been better off getting a few squadrons of SU-30s armed with AA-12s now that would in theory at least present more of a challenge. This is also assuming that the russians would sell to them.

[golden_eagle]

The IAF would not loose a single A/C to the F-14 / F-4 / F-5 / Mig-29 of the Iranian Air Force...folks, you give WAY too much credit to the F-14 and the AIM 54, not to mention the dismal mission capable rate of the Iranian air fleet, terrible training and capability of thier "hand picked - martyr pilots"

It is my opinion but that is based on lots of information not available to many.

If the IAF looses any a/c it will most likely be from SAM's and AAA...

[southernphantom]

The IAF would not loose a single A/C to the F-14 / F-4 / F-5 / Mig-29 of the Iranian Air Force...folks, you give WAY too much credit to the F-14 and the AIM 54, not to mention the dismal mission capable rate of the Iranian air fleet, terrible training and capability of thier "hand picked - martyr pilots"

It is my opinion but that is based on lots of information not available to many.

If the IAF looses any a/c it will most likely be from SAM's and AAA...

It's better to over-build the package and remove Iran's...everything, than to assume impotence and be embarrassed. True, though, I've heard their pilots are picked more for political reasons than for any semblance of competence.

[weez]

The IAF would not loose a single A/C to the F-14 / F-4 / F-5 / Mig-29 of the Iranian Air Force...folks, you give WAY too much credit to the F-14 and the AIM 54, not to mention the dismal mission capable rate of the Iranian air fleet, terrible training and capability of thier "hand picked - martyr pilots"

Contrast these Iranian pilots and their equipment with that of Israel. Israeli fighter drivers have a very high degree of competency, outstanding training, and have been turning their adversaries into hair teeth and eyeballs for decades. Much of the F-15's superb combat record can be attributed to the IAF don't forget. Iran wouldn't know what hit them.

[tacf-x]

In such a hypothetical scenario it really does come down to what the Iranians have on their F-14s as stated above. However I'm not too worried as I doubt the F-14s are in that usable of a condition. The major advantage they have going for them is the AIM-54 Pheonix and AWG-9 combo which I doubt would be too effective as the Pheonix missiles might be in bad condition and might malfunction like they did in US service when fired. The Israeli fighters' RWR suites should detect the AIM-54 no matter what once it is emitting. Whether it can identify the missile is debatable but considering how the RWR will respond to the waveform of the Phoenix's radar I doubt it would be a problem as the RWR will consider it a high priority threat and then the ECM would be triggered. On the other hand the Iranians might have upgraded their F-14s to a higher level of capability given some ingenuity. We really don't know what the Iranians are capable of. For all we know they might have had their radars upgraded to be compatible with modern BVRAAMs and the airframe structure has been properly maintained.

Either way the Israeli pilots will have the advantage in training and experience. Let's not forget that they achieved the majority of the F-15's air combat kills. That and we know that the F-15I and F-16I have quite impressive avionics suites to overcome most of what the Iranians throw at them easily. AMRAAM will certainly be of use once AIM-54's are countered as the AIM-7 will be no match for the AIM-120 thanks to the AMRAAM's superior engagement envelope and multi-shot capabilities. In the ACM environment the F-14s will be massacred by the F-15's and F-16's with their pythons and helmet mounted sights.

Considering the Iranians can only keep one squadron of F-14s operational at any given time then I believe the F-14's in IRIAF might be in simply too poor of a condition to engage a strike package of F-16Is supported by F-15Is. The F-14s would suffer from the Iranian Air Force's poor mission capable rate as golden_eagle said and even with the AIM-54 I doubt the Iranians even have that many of them in working order to be of much use.

[avon1944]

I have been a fan of the Tomcat since Grumman signed the contract with the USN, in 1969. That said, the Tomcat's day has come and gone! (Long live its memory.)
The USAF did three surveys for the best to replacement for the F-106. The first survey was done by the North Dakota ANG. The next two surveyes had the same results. Their first choice was the F-14A, then the F-15A, F-16A &, F-4! They realized the F-4 would have to be re-engined and given the radar of the F/A-18 but, they did not include the F/A-18. They found the F-14A with six Phoenix missiles better in range and time on patrol an F-15A with two missiles. They also made comment that the finding for the F-14A would stand very little chance of being operational.
The F-15 and F-16 have been kept up to date by the USAF and many countries are particularly high. Their avionics is so much better than the avionics of the F-14As, especially the Iranian Tomcats. So the Phoenix missile we have to discount by modern self-protect ECM systems. On the other-hand I have no idea if the F-14 ever had a self-protecting jammer that could deal with AMRAAM??
The one edge the IRIAF would have is the GCI during the attacks while the IAF will not have assistance the E-2. By the way, how would IAF get to Iran, whos territory would they overfly? Would countries that detect the over-flight alert other countries? You can not expect the AD of the countries -Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc. for a northern route to Iraq or the southern route Yemen where they would fly through the AD of Saudi Arabia, Oman, etc. Other countries overflown would toppled the government by the people of that county.
Now we have to discuss the re-fueling problem?

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Well the IDFAF overflew several non friendly countries in 1982 to take out the Osirak reactor and they never had a single shot fired at them during the hundreds of miles on ingress. They flew NOE the whole way in and pretty much a high altitude supersonic run the whole way back and landed on fumes.

[avon1944]

Well the IDFAF overflew several non friendly countries in 1982 to take out the Osirak reactor and they never had a single shot fired at them during the hundreds of miles on ingress. They flew NOE the whole way in and pretty much a high altitude supersonic run the whole way back and landed on fumes.

Yes, they flew the out-bound and the Iraqi defense did not detect them. But they were detected by King Hussein of Jordan. They overflew his yatch on the Gulf of Aqaba! The King knew that IAF fighters heading east over flying his yatch that low and fast... could have only one destination, Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osirak! There was no communications network to make such a connection, to the Iraqi government or air defense. There was also a Saudi Arabian E-3 Sentry on patrol that detected the F-15s. The flight leader spoke perfect Arabic! The E-3 bought their story about being on a training mission just inside Saudi air space story. They proceeded with no other challenges.
Their was some talk about creating an emergency communication network, how far project got I have no idea?
On the way home, the force flew 75-miles -around that on the deck. Being sure they were not being followed the force rose to 30,000-ft until they were in Israeli air space.
The History Channel did a program on the raid. Being interviewed was King Hussein, some Israeli pilots and, one of their commanders.

You Tube has several videos.

[avon1944]

After writing the last post, I research and found this map on the route flown by the IDF-AF on the attack of the nuclear reactor at Osirak.

P.S. -Any word of an attack on Iraq, look how far Iran is one-way.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

I'm sure if it came up there would be refueling assets available...