F-16 vs. F-6, dogfight near the deck.

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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skyhigh

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Unread post26 Apr 2009, 12:13

Which plane would you want to be in, an F-16 Fighting Falcon (preferable an early model Block 15) or a Shenyang F-6 (Chinese-built clone of the MiG-19 Farmer) dogfighting near the deck?

The Pakistan Air Force simulated this kind of dogfight and they found the F-6 to be an agile dogfighter close to the deck.
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Shenyang F-6
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F-16A Block 15 Viper
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outlaw162

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Unread post26 Apr 2009, 21:27

That's odd. One's in a museum & one is not.

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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post26 Apr 2009, 23:22

The Viper would kill the Farmer as soon as the fight turned vertical. (Which would be the first thing to do against an enemy who MAY have a turn advantage on you at low-altitude.)

One always plays towards his strengths, and exploits his enemies' weaknesses.

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[Airplanes are] near perfect, all they lack is the ability to forgive.
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skyhigh

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Unread post26 Apr 2009, 23:37

But what if you were the pilot of the MiG-19 clone? You would have hugged the deck, weaving side by side through the valleys, as the Pakistanis demonstrated.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post27 Apr 2009, 09:33

Fighitng the F-6 on a flat turn would be a deadly mistake. DONT underestimate it (too muct) it would shred the falcon appart. This is because profiled wings are much more efficient (more lift) at turning than laminar ones (for supersonic flight).

Fighting it in the vertical is the advantage of the falcon for its thrust to weight ratio. BTW that F-16 in the photo is not a Pakistan F-16. Its Portuguese.
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skyhigh

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Unread post27 Apr 2009, 13:05

I know that, I didn't care about the nationality of the F-16, and same for the F-6 (MiG-19 clone), which was Chinese PLAAF.

Just for comparison only, how they would perform in a dogfight near the deck.

The F-6's 58 degree swept wing makes it maneuverable.

No wonder wing shape makes a difference.
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outlaw162

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Unread post27 Apr 2009, 13:51

Seriously now folks, look at those wing fences. The MiG-19 was a squirrel at low speed. True the MiG-19 is a classic, on a par with the old F-100. But trust me; this is no contest, either level or vertical. Having some familiarity with both the Super Sabre & the Viper, I can guarantee that if your talking guns, from a neutral start or heck even a defensive start for the Viper, the F-16 could be saddled up and shooting in no more than a couple of turns. The only challenge involved for the Viper driver would be to find just the right amount to pull the throttle back.

OL
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Unread post28 Apr 2009, 00:07

Even if the J-6 has advantages in some areas of the flight envelope over the F-16, I don't think it is enough to make a difference if the F-16 pilot is competent. The F-16 has a significantly higher rate of climb, G limit, and top speed.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post28 Apr 2009, 11:13

skyhigh wrote:I know that, I didn't care about the nationality of the F-16, and same for the F-6 (MiG-19 clone), which was Chinese PLAAF.

Just for comparison only, how they would perform in a dogfight near the deck.

The F-6's 58 degree swept wing makes it maneuverable.

No wonder wing shape makes a difference.


Its not the sweep, its the cross section profile. Its teardrop shaped as oposed to the falcons nearly straight (laminar) profile.
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shep1978

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Unread post28 Apr 2009, 12:40

One idea for you Mr Skyhigh is to go and get a copy off of Ebay of the orgional Falcon 4 and add on either the 'open falcon' or the newer 'Free Falcon 5' and tinker about to your hearts content.. (Whilst I know these sims are not in any way perfect they do offer some exploring of tactics and give you a better idea of pros and cons of various aircraft, aand you will have a whole load of fun to boot!)
http://www.freefalcon.com/index.php
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skyhigh

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Unread post28 Apr 2009, 12:45

I mean the wing shape in performance.

Anyway, if I were piloting the F-6, I'd never go vertical unless I wanted to get behind the Viper (an early model).
The MiG-19 clone has a slower stall speed and rate of climb and less thrust than the F-16, making it easier for the Viper pilot to overshoot in a vertical climb.

In order for the F-16 pilot to keep up with me, he / she would have to scissor left, right, left, right repeatedly, bleeding off airspeed until the Viper stalls. Upon stalling, I would maneuver the F-6 behind the Viper and gun it near the deck with 3 x 30mm NR-30.

RAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT! BOOM!

The Farmer may be long obsolete, but it still has fangs!
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Unread post28 Apr 2009, 22:53

If this is a "guns only" fight, the F-16 could simply use its superior speed to stay outside of the J-6's firing range until the bogey runs out of gas and returns to base (or crashes). I believe that the F-16 has the longer range of the two. It's not exactly a "fun" way to win the fight, but whatever works...
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F16guy

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Unread post29 Apr 2009, 07:05

skyhigh,

The only thing going Rat tat tat tat tat.....tat.... is the marble loose in the ole' brain bucket there...

This non-sense about making a Viper stall....whatever.

When you can sneak up on me and gun me when I'm not aware, then we will talk about the F-6 having and advantage, but thinking you'll out maneuver the F-16 near the deck with an F-6....no you won't, not even close against an early block F-16.

The Farmer is obsolete and doesn't have fangs unless it gets to attack unseen.

The scenario you've described in your last post doesn't differentiate an advantage of one plane over another, it describes an incompetent pilot versus a competent pilot. Don't mix the two up.
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skyhigh

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Unread post29 Apr 2009, 09:42

I meant a tail-chase engagement near the deck between an F-6 and a Viper, with the Viper in hot pursuit.

I know the Farmer is obsolete Cold War junk, but still, it is an agile dogfighter near the deck.
In my last post on this thread, I described a viable tactic how the Farmer could gun down a Viper.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post29 Apr 2009, 11:53

skyhigh wrote:I mean the wing shape in performance.

Anyway, if I were piloting the F-6, I'd never go vertical unless I wanted to get behind the Viper (an early model).
The MiG-19 clone has a slower stall speed and rate of climb and less thrust than the F-16, making it easier for the Viper pilot to overshoot in a vertical climb.

In order for the F-16 pilot to keep up with me, he / she would have to scissor left, right, left, right repeatedly, bleeding off airspeed until the Viper stalls. Upon stalling, I would maneuver the F-6 behind the Viper and gun it near the deck with 3 x 30mm NR-30.

RAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT! BOOM!

The Farmer may be long obsolete, but it still has fangs!


:shock:
Superior Thrust to weight ratio is not mentioned as an advantage for nothing! :wink: The only way you wont want to outclimb the F-6 is if your going to overshoot right past its firing line. What are the chances of that hapening unless you donne something realy, realy dumb in the first place?

If you outclimb the F-6, and he cant keep up, you got the whole time in the universe to choose a moment for your guns pass and shoot him like a clay pigeom from above. Simple as that.
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