Viper versus A-4 Scooter

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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Gums

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Unread post30 May 2004, 04:59

Salute!

Check out <a href="http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/asm/Mag/Index/2004/JJ/Contents.html">latest Smithsonian</a>. Good article about the A-4.

Funny, but not a lot of discussion about Scooter versus Viper. heh heh.

My first ride (back seat) was an A2A versus a Scooter from Top Gun school.

Merge, go vertical, watch Scooter make last-ditch maneuver, gun his brains out, 'knock it off'.

Viper doesn't bleed off speed like the article says for the Eagle, Hornet or 'cat. Those LEF's really help, my friends. And we could fight quite nicely at 120-150 knots, thank you. No buffet to speak of, improved directional stability, less drag, etc. GD built a neat jet, and it is still a serious threat to many other fighters 30 years later.

Only A-4 that got me was a super setup by GCI as I was collecting my newbie wingman. Sucker hosed me nice and neat with 'Atoll'. So much for worrying about your wingie and not checking 6!!!!!!

later,
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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Rigamortis

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Unread post31 May 2004, 02:02

While I was in Singapore in 94' I asked one of our pilots how well the scooters held up in combat. They said the damn thing was dangerous with those f-404 engines mounted but they were inhibited due to their reliance on ground control radar to find the vipers at long range. Our pilots said they would just change altitude every so many minutes just prior to engagement. Once the festivities began at close range that was when they had to be careful with them.

Rigo
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SwedgeII

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Unread post10 Jun 2004, 20:10

Yeah most of those ACMI ranges force the aircraft in tight, kinda defeats the advantages of big radar platforms like the 15. I used to go watch my Aircraft fight all the time, as a bonus those ACMI huts are fricken cold! Anyway saw some Sim MIG-21's shoot like 6 missiles! I asked about that and they basically told me to hush! I then watched a jet with a Coffin on it get vectored behind some 15’s then Coffin gets taken off and bam the formerly dead Mig 21 now comes alive at the 15’s 6 and launches a salvo of 4 missiles then launches 3 more later. I talked to my Pilot about this. He was pretty miffed!!!
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stusbke

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Unread post03 Aug 2004, 17:43

he they simulate russian planes, mostly the early jets and these didnt have sufficiant radar because they had a lot of them on the ground they only thing the russians used to carry was a damn good IR seeker. So I think it is obvious that they dont have the advantage of using a soffisticated radar and sh*t, they just go out and use what the viper used to carry in teh early days of its career, (remember just guns and sidewinders) no radar needed for that guys, and I still bet my money on a A4-F with an real adversary pilot at the stick who can exploit the airframe to the limit. You bet ya its gonna be one hell of a fight, knives are up!

stb
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dyno

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Unread post03 Aug 2004, 21:11

You're right ... if the Viper gets slow with the Scooter, they'll have quite a scrap ... I had the pleasure of flying each for a number of years :D

First, yes we have to say fighting with heaters & guns only. Otherwise, the A-4 never gets to the fight! :(

When the F-16 stays in it's corner range (band if you will) of airspeed, it will always kick the Scooter's rear very quickly (assuming tally is maintained, which is definately not a given vs the little A-4).
So the Scooter needs to draw the F-16 into a slow scissors ... and there he will definately have a chance ... Scooter's leading edge aerodynamic slats will be out ... and if he throws some of his flaps down too, he can get slower than, & he can use his rudder to out lead turn the Viper ... "Hal" will only let the Viper get to a certain AOA, then no slower, so the Viper will have problems here ... what the Viper can do though, is extend just a little bit (might be tough to do without getting shot!) to 250 or so KIAS & take it straight over the top ... the Scooter will not be able to stay with him there and will become defensive.

btw ... all this would also be basically true in F-16 vs Mig 21. 8)

The real picture is ... of course that Viper guys are not dumb enough to get slow with the rif-raff of the fighter world ... and most every F-16 vs A-4 encounter will come out just as Gums illustrates above (why do you think he said "heh, heh, heh") ... only time of loss surrounds a no tally, or no clue (ie total surprize) situation.

Fun to think about though, isn't it? Cheers!
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elp

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Unread post04 Aug 2004, 01:56

Darn. Sorry I missed this thread. Great reading!

As Gums would say: "Whoo Weee!"

That 404 engine A-4 mentioned above is different for sure. Not to be confused with the J-52-P-408A engined jets every other "normal" A-4 user has. ;) Plus I think it is only a 6G jet ?

You mentioned the MiG-21 above. That jet gets kind of dangerous if you get slow in it. A super honcho MiG-21 driver ( not many around ) I don't think would want to get slow. That jet forgives nothing and needs an SH pilot to appreciate its unforgiving traits.

"pssst... Gums..." Don't worry. Real world, Atoll had a real garbage PK. Made early Sparrows look good. :lol:

Would love to see a new build, modern component, A-4 with todays tech on it. A nice simple bomb truck. Maybe not for us, but would still be cool. I have always liked the A-4. Looks better without the humpback.
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stusbke

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Unread post04 Aug 2004, 16:12

BTW... all this would also be basically true in F-16 vs Mig 21.


But as I can remember didn't they use the A-4 as a MIG-17 adversary? I sure have pictures of that in my books. And yes I am not saing at all that the viper couldnt easely win from the A-4. If not they wouldn't have made it weel according to the specifications but you know I have a thing with that little jet you know :lol:

Would love to see a new build, modern component, A-4 with todays tech on it. A nice simple bomb truck. Maybe not for us, but would still be cool. I have always liked the A-4. Looks better without the humpback.


I would say you kinda already have that check the singapore A-4, they have better electronics in there. And ooh wouldn't that be sweet if they would build an upgraded more powered version of the A-4? :wink:
And I don't mind the hump, makes them look cool, almost nasty :wink:

I would love to say "let the viper bring it on then" :P

stb
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habu2

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Unread post04 Aug 2004, 16:35

elp wrote:Would love to see a new build, modern component, A-4 with todays tech on it.

Isn't this basically what Lockheed did with converting A-4Ms to A-4ARs for Argentina? Not new build, but rebuilt with "modern" avionics including the APG-66 (F-16A radar).

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elp

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Unread post04 Aug 2004, 18:41

Photos of A-4s loaded up max with dumb iron look great. Especially ones with the old long mud fuses or what ever they are called. I like the real old school Nam era photos. Never seen a photo of one hanging a nuke ( its original designed mission ).

Cool jet.
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dyno

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Unread post05 Aug 2004, 00:34

Tally ho all ... :D

Neat picture! ... the Skyhawk was really like strapping on a jet ... you sit in there with your legs extended well up under the instrument panel, the stick is right in your lap, throttle close to your thigh, shoulders are right up next to the canopy rails, can glance back & see those intakes only a few feet away (big FOD hazard on gnd ops) ... when you change a mil setting or radio channel etc. you barely extend your arm ... everything is tight & close ... can really hear the engine well, signature whine, when experienced you knew you had the right power setting by sound as much as by RPM (no eec or deec in there) ... ... J-52's for me as my time was all in TA-4J teaching squids how to do tactical formation, manual bombing, low level nav, BFM, ACM & carrier landings ... got real good in the Scooter as most of our air to air sorties were solo IP with your solo Student ... the way it should be. :)

I had the good fortune and excitement a number of years later to be a two ship Viper lead (Block 15's Black Widows out of Hill) among the Blue Force vs a Red Force including USMC A-4M's ... Sentry Eagle Exercise out of Klamath Falls Oregon, back when they had F-4's there ... great great time, thanks 114 TFTS Kingsley Field! 8)
anyway ... we were lucky enough to have four Scooters ingress through our part of the AOR ... they'd call it combat spread 9k apart with the wingmen in fighting wing outriggers... ... they were late contacts for us with our old APG 66 ... but we had track while scan by then & they were easy to sort & target ... I always carried my mike (heaters & guns only A models) slaved to the TD container ... they had no RWR & were clueless of our low to high offset intercept ... we blossomed into a visual pince at ten miles & cooled down, standard for us to VID at the time ... VID at about four miles ... popped one in the face with a mike from boresight (cursor enable) let go of that & immediately also fox 2'd the wingman trailer with my slaved mike ... both single shot kill criteria ... my wingman was able to accomplish two face shots also ... we splashed all four at the merge, aileron rolled & blew through to flow to the next threat group. ... wow that was fun! :P

Well ... why do I relate this drivel? ... just because when I see the A-4M I have nice smiley memories ... an engagement that went just like the MQT textbook! :D :D

Cheers!
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elp

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Unread post05 Aug 2004, 16:05

Great reading !
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Fightinghawk

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Unread post05 Aug 2004, 21:35

Hi, I have good A-4AR pictures. Enjoy.

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Please, ask me anything you want to know.

Bye from Argentina!.
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habu2

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Unread post06 Aug 2004, 17:24

Cockpit photos? I know the general layout but have not seen (or been able to find) any photos of the new AR cockpit.
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Fightinghawk

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Unread post09 Aug 2004, 12:51

habu2 wrote:Cockpit photos? I know the general layout but have not seen (or been able to find) any photos of the new AR cockpit.


Well, it's difficult but I have one.
Attachments
LaDificilZM.JPG
a-4ar-cockpit.jpg
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/701-800/Fea706_A-4_McEwan/fea706.htm
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JR007

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Unread post26 Aug 2004, 02:09

Gums,

There were two Scooters operating out of Cold Lake while we were there. They were from ATSI.

http://www.atsifightertraining.com/

Good group of folks!
Burning debris never reversed on anyone…

JR
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