F-16 vs. MiG-21-93/97 "Bison"

[Jukkaimaru]

Okay, guys, here's something I've been wondering about. I've heard that this heavily modified variant of the MiG-21 is supposedly equal or superior to the F-16C (possibly meaning w/o the JHMCS+AIM-9X?), and that in a recent exercise some Indian Air Force pilots were tearing up Vipers with it. Is it possible for anyone to make a verification on these claims, and/or provide some better information on the Bison as to why it would or would not be as good as advertised? Thanks in advance.

[Pilotasso]

The indians were using them in larger numbers from deep valeys and the american planes were fighting without AMRAAMs.

The Bison upgrade has been arround for quite a while actualy. And your still stuck to a plane that has limited amout of fuel, restricted cockpit view and a low corner speed. Its not for nothing the indians call it the flying coffin either.

Furthermore the vaunted RVVAE that equips them has no datalink and the Bisons radar absolutely cannot be compared to the APG-68. The F-16 IMHo smokes the Bison in every area, except the price wich isnt an advantage you can bragg about either.

The indians want to replace them and for good reasons.

[Shotgun]

The Bisons had some new Israeli Radar as well. Check out the youtube link I posted on F-16 vs Su-30MKI link. There is a part where the Colonel was talking about the Bisons and their jammers.

[skyhigh]

So a future 3rd World adversary would be flying reconditioned MiG-21s like that of India's?

[Pilotasso]

Or the chinese F-7MG, or similar variant.

[Pilotasso]

--double post sorry!--

[nastle]

what is the effect of numbers in this equation ?
lets says 4 f16 A/Bs vs 12 mig21bis from the 1980s [ this is before AMRAAM and before any R73s]

[basher54321]

What you need to do is sit down and think of what your scenario entails - or at least you could probably run this through a computer game and see what results you might get.

12 MiGs what all together? separate flights? are they over Russia?, do they have any ground or AWACs support? do they have the fuel for a fight?

Say for example 12 MiGs flew up behind a flight of F-16s and the F-16s were not aware then that might be bad for the F-16 flight. Likewise if the F-16 flight gets vectors from AWACs that there are 12 MiGs about they can decide not to engage, or drag them into 85 x F-4s or fly up behind them and see how many they can shoot down. Or maybe neither side has radar support and they just fly past each other

Historically having the numbers has been an advantage - however there is no answer to this question!

IIRC there was one dogfight where Giora Epstein was outnumbered in a Mirage 3 Vs MiG-21s and they all only had rear aspect missiles and he came away from it with kills - partly down to shear luck I imagine. (although there were no doubt other factors to consider)

[nastle]

What you need to do is sit down and think of what your scenario entails - or at least you could probably run this through a computer game and see what results you might get.

12 MiGs what all together? separate flights? are they over Russia?, do they have any ground or AWACs support? do they have the fuel for a fight?

Say for example 12 MiGs flew up behind a flight of F-16s and the F-16s were not aware then that might be bad for the F-16 flight. Likewise if the F-16 flight gets vectors from AWACs that there are 12 MiGs about they can decide not to engage, or drag them into 85 x F-4s or fly up behind them and see how many they can shoot down. Or maybe neither side has radar support and they just fly past each other

Historically having the numbers has been an advantage - however there is no answer to this question!

IIRC there was one dogfight where Giora Epstein was outnumbered in a Mirage 3 Vs MiG-21s and they all only had rear aspect missiles and he came away from it with kills - partly down to shear luck I imagine. (although there were no doubt other factors to consider)

Indeed you are right they are always a ton of variables but we frequently tend to downplay numbers which can be a big factor in some situations

In this scenario lets say F16A/Bs are on a CAS/strike mission over hostile territory , laden with bombs and AIM9Ls , with AWACS support
while the mig21bis with R13M and R60 are trying to intercept them with support of GCI

no other fighters/SAM near by to assist

[Shimud]

what is the effect of numbers in this equation ?
lets says 4 f16 A/Bs vs 12 mig21bis from the 1980s [ this is before AMRAAM and before any R73s]

When it comes to numbers, on a 1 to 1 basis, Bison proved superior when it shot down a Viper during Feb 2019 (InAF vs PAF).

[eloise]

When it comes to numbers, on a 1 to 1 basis, Bison proved superior when it shot down a Viper during Feb 2019 (InAF vs PAF).

No it didn't. We have been over this a million time already.
PAF F-16 shotdown InAF Mig-21 bison and they have undeniable evidences. Whereas Indian also claimed they shotdown 1 F-16 in exchange to save face, but they couldn't provide any evidences to back up that theory.

[nastle]

what is the effect of numbers in this equation ?
lets says 4 f16 A/Bs vs 12 mig21bis from the 1980s [ this is before AMRAAM and before any R73s]

When it comes to numbers, on a 1 to 1 basis, Bison proved superior when it shot down a Viper during Feb 2019 (InAF vs PAF).

im talking about 1980s

[basher54321]

Indeed you are right they are always a ton of variables but we frequently tend to downplay numbers which can be a big factor in some situations

In this scenario lets say F16A/Bs are on a CAS/strike mission over hostile territory , laden with bombs and AIM9Ls , with AWACS support
while the mig21bis with R13M and R60 are trying to intercept them with support of GCI

no other fighters/SAM near by to assist

Laden with bombs should give you an idea that getting intercepted means you may have to jettison the lot so a mission kill. If the other side only has GCI then they would have to plan routes around that (fly low) or degrade it.

So with your MiGs on the ground no guarantee they will take off because GCI coverage could be patchy to non existent depending on etc etc.

Without GCI if we are talking 1980s here then the MiGs are totally blind..no different to say a Lightning in that role over Europe being described as a "Supersonic Spitfire" because without outside help they only have eyes to go on.

If on the other hand you have CAPs may want to spread them thinly across potential ingress routes in the hope they might see something. If they CAP at any kind of altitude that would increase the chance the AWACs would see them and could give warning accordingly.

You could go AG and still do AA if you wanted to with the right loadout - an exercise in Scotland (early 80s) had F-16As taking down around 80 x Lighting and F-4s acting as MiGs and still doing a primary AG role.

[nastle]

You could go AG and still do AA if you wanted to with the right loadout - an exercise in Scotland (early 80s) had F-16As taking down around 80 x Lighting and F-4s acting as MiGs and still doing a primary AG role.

where can i find details about this ? thanks

[basher54321]

Been in various places over the years but I remember Gums used to go on about it so worth searching:

F-16 Bomb Comp at lossiemouth..... hmmmmm

Let's get a thread going over on main board, what say?

They shot down about 80 'aggressors' on their ingress and egress. I believe one kill was awarded to the aggressors, but it was challenged, way I remember it.

I have some real grainy video of some of the kills and a low-level delivery. It was unbelieveable to see how quickly they fired their Aim-9's, then regrouped and continued on in.

f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=517&p=6304&hilit=lossiemouth#p6304