F16 VS EXTRA 300

[Nova]

I've seen extra doing the redbull race, and im impress with the menuverbility.

I just wonder how its manuver compare to F16 at its best manuver altitude?

Can F16 pull 10Gs like the extra? from most site that i've visited it said it can goes up to 9Gs?

If you put laser tag on both aircraft and let them dogfight......lol......what would happen?

[hansundfranz]

They shoot each other head on in every path. The extra has much smaller turn radius and much higher turn rate, Of course tihs is because of its way lower speed,

Of course this all does not matter at all. A WW1 prop place could do the same. Good luck shooting an F16 down with 2 30 cals.

And impressive payload, too,

[Guysmiley]

Boom and zoom baby. I don't think it'd be a contest.

F-16's FLCS limits it to 9g, ham handed pilots can defeat that limiter temporarily. But you wouldn't need to, an F-16 could bleed an Extra 300 out of energy easily. An Extra can pull 10gs, true, but in doing so it loses energy (it slows down). An F-16 in full burner can pull 9gs until it runs out of fuel.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

that and the vertical climb capability and the use of supersonic speeds.... yeah, the F-16 would pretty much have to LET the Extra take a shot.

[Scorpion1alpha]

Come on now. You know comparing these two type of aircraft is comparing apples to oranges.

Aircraft like the Extra, Oracle 2, etc are specialized planes built for one specific parameter, and they excel at it simply because they were specifically built to be. They are NOT, however, combat aircraft. They do not carry weapons (internal gun, gun pods, missiles, A2G munitions, etc) or hang anything off their wings other than maybe their fixed landing gear. Oh, did I mention what is their range, climb rate, ceiling, max speed, etc? What radar and avionic does it carry?

In other words, they have no combat capability.

If a an Extra guy ever wanted to play "laser tag" with an F-16, the Viper can dictate the engagement (because he has more useful performance available to him) much more so, can refuse to get into a turning engagement, and make it a bad day for the Extra.

[stamatisg2002]

Put the Extra VLow Alt, low visibility camo, and a pair of guns.... Well, I wouldn't want to be in the Viper's cockpit....

[F16guy]

Yeah... what Scoripion said...


So...you want me to turn with an Extra??? Okay, I'll pick the altitude....How about 40 + thousand feet? Okay...How about I pick the speed? Lets say it has to be over 500 knots. No....??? Why would I fight the Extra on its terms??? The Extra can't even come close to fighting on the Viper's terms.

And to anyone who says "Well just try to fly very low and slow with a camo paint job on the extra...." I bet if you were sitting in the Extra you'd never even know where the Viper was, so I'd love to be in the Viper's cockpit.

Just don't expect me to try and compete in any Red Bull pylon racing. I'm afraid the Viper would knock down all the pylons and not be able to turn through any of them.

[flames]

Yeah they are two completely different aircraft made for completely different things. F-16 Fighter jet, Exter Areobatic stunt plane.

But in saying that I would like to see a exter with a couple of AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-7 Sparrow topped of with a 20ml cannon... But since this is hypothetical change the AMRAAM to some AIM-54 Phoenix Even if it was possible I'd back the F-16

[vilters]

I'll take the Extra, any day, any time.
The F-16 with missiles is useless. Missiles for what? I have no IR signature, and almost no radar signature.
Let us start at the merge.
I'll keep the speed around 150 kts, and the altitude below 1.000 ft.
One, versus one on Guns only.
Let him come to me ; I have time, (fuel is time), manoeuvrability, and most of all, I am at workable angle of attacks. Ever seen an F-16 at 150-200 kts low down? That gun points to the sky at his alfa???
And he can not turn, not at this speed and altitude anyway. Well, he can turn, boards out and in burner, but not for long, as he is gulping his fuel away, and will never get an angle, my turn radius is a lot smaller, so I‘ll outturn him all day long.
Let him blow by, I'l turn with him, and nail him with 2 standard 7.62 machine guns.
So, I have 6 minutes of play time to get him, before he runs out of go-go juice.
Only option he could take is the high speed engage, disengage, engage, disengage.
And frontal only.
Whenever he engages a turning fight, he’s mine.

[StolichnayaStrafer]

I don't know what this Extra 300 is, but I do know this...

if it is an aerobatic aircraft, it is built pretty lean.

That being said, it probably has no room for any armament. Even if it does, I would bet that the added weight will alter it's flight characteristics considerably. Another thing- how will you aim anything? I will also bet that there is no extra room for any fire control equipment in the cockpit. What are you going to do, set up an old bead and crosshair for firing purposes? You would need a decent targeting system to defeat even the WWII trainers!

They don't call it the F-16 Fighting Falcon for nothing- better to stick with combat aircraft for combat in my book.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

also, no radar sig?? please, what do you think a propeller is!??! Fan blades on Jets give HUGE RCS returns so why wouldnt a prop do the same?

[vilters]

For starters; competition Extra's have a composite prop.
Secondly, the wing, tail, landing gear, most of the fuselage is composite.
And last but not least, they come as single and a dual seater versions with "about" the same performance. And! ! i have the same aircraft performance in negative G.
So we take the dual seater but fly solo.
That means I have about 80 -90 kg to play with.
I mount 4 standard issue 7.62 short bareled machine guns, with 500 rounds each, in composite streamlined pods, just outside the prop arc. And still have weight to spare. . .
Zero them at 1000 meters.
For aiming, a very simple device will do, just compensate for my own G, modern jets have a corner speed of about 350-400kts, so we'll stick to that,
The discussion here started with an Extra, but a Cap would also do. Wooden wing, wooden fuselage, largely covered with dacron, composite landing gear, composite prop.
And Both of those planes have Redbull Race Roll rates, and G tolerances.
Never forget , even at 4G , I'll have a better turn radious. I will not suffer, fatigue, or black out. And still have 4 spare G's.
i'd like to meet the guy that lives trough those 6 minutes.
Arms; 7.62 machine guns have a firing rate of 600 rounds a minute, so i can spray lead and copper for a total of about 45-50 seconds. And i'll throw some tracers in the belt.(Standard )
The F-16 has a higher firing rate , but less time to shoot.
Even if hit, he'll have to hit something critical. For the Extra or the Cap that would be the engine, pilot or the very small fuel tank. All other bullets would make non critical holes in the fabrik.
The F-16, compact as it is, I can hit it anywhere. in a turn, it is a huge fuel tank. From the front, one in that huge mouth would do just fine.

[vilters]

And in reality; 6 minutes is (for the F-16 clean) from full fuel to empty at burner fuel flows, this low down.
Take off, come to the fight and return to base?
The fight would last a max of 1 minutes, so i can spray lead almost full time he dares to come near me.
And, due to our turning capability, he will allways be in front of me.
He'll have a moving critical target of max 3 square foot.

[Guysmiley]

Ha ha, keep dreaming!

Firstly, an Extra most certainly DOES have a radar and an IR signature.

Secondly, why would an F-16 in a dogfight intentionally get low and slow to where it's not effective?

Third, the F-16 would never even have to be in AB, especially if it's flying clean.

Fourth, the Extra pilot would never even SEE the Viper pilot until it's too late, a 500 knot gun pass on a target flying in a 4g circle at 100 knots isn't all that hard. And if the run doesn't look good, just pull up and ease around for another run once he loses sight of you again.

As to your delusion about duct taping machine guns to the wings: Not quite. Adding weight that far out on the wings would have a significant detrimental effect on the roll rate and possibly the stability of the aircraft. But the original question was about "laser tag", not actual combat.

[Mechanic]

This is fun!

Ok let's say it's heads on. (All the Extra can do is turn heads on when the F-16 chooses to engage) Now the fun part starts. Without quoting any numbers we assume that a 20mm M61 has somewhat longer range than a short barreled 7.62mm. Ok, the F-16 can open the fire at longer range, and if the Extra ever gets opportunity fire back, the F-16 can pull up at high speed before the tiny bullets arrive. If the Extra tries to turn it's no problem, because it has no speed to create large side velocities before the spread of 20 mm explosive grenades arrives. That is 100 grenades per second spread out for maximum lethality.

No critical parts in Extra expect pilot, engine and fuel? I would like to see an Extra fly after a 20 mm grenade goes though a wing spar or a fuselage beam - even unexploded.

vilters: Get Il-2 1944 PC-game and try I-153 vs XP-80.