F-16 versus Saab Gripen
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yor_on wrote:Just want to tell an anecdote that I heard in the military about our old Draken. (The first airplane with a data link, super secret at that time:)
The first Drakens with datalink capability were J35B's with the Stril 60 system, delivered in 1964. The J35A's did not have it.
The F-106A went operational in 1959 with the MA-1 fire control system which included datalink. I believe even the F-101B's fitted with a datalink system were operational by 1962 also. NORAD SAGE pre-dates your Drakens.
"Follow dolly."
OL
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Didn't know that outlaw.
F-106A had it for their fire control system?
In what manner did they use it do you mean?
==
You're right Exec :)
Should have thought before I opened my mouth there.
Not that we Swedes need super cruise that much.
We're not planning any longer excursions. In fact the idea's biggest fascination seems to come from those expecting to have cover a lot of distance as economically as possible. We on the other side works with the idea of 'interceptors' strategically out placed, and constantly moving. And our excursions should be over in ? well engaging, delivering and leaving should be in fifteen minutes possibly? And the rest of the time possibly changing location if necessary.
But it's still not the F22 that have the first Super cruise..
F-106A had it for their fire control system?
In what manner did they use it do you mean?
==
You're right Exec :)
Should have thought before I opened my mouth there.
Not that we Swedes need super cruise that much.
We're not planning any longer excursions. In fact the idea's biggest fascination seems to come from those expecting to have cover a lot of distance as economically as possible. We on the other side works with the idea of 'interceptors' strategically out placed, and constantly moving. And our excursions should be over in ? well engaging, delivering and leaving should be in fifteen minutes possibly? And the rest of the time possibly changing location if necessary.
But it's still not the F22 that have the first Super cruise..
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Quite cool in fact, not that it is what I'm thinking of when discussing our Swedish data link, but impressive all the same. A centralized concept where you went through to big tracking centers on the ground that then up dated your radar display locally. But it's not 'peer to peer'. like we had, as for what version of Draken that had it first :) Yep, and?
Draken was the first with our solution, you have to understand that there is big leap between a centralized solution and what we have in terms of peer2peer, our's are very flexible, and used since Draken. I know it hurts to admit but it's why NATO is trying to incorporate this kind of solutions too:)
Draken was the first with our solution, you have to understand that there is big leap between a centralized solution and what we have in terms of peer2peer, our's are very flexible, and used since Draken. I know it hurts to admit but it's why NATO is trying to incorporate this kind of solutions too:)
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"On a typical air intercept mission, after leaving the home base the pilot selected the data link receiver input from SAGE that interacted with the MA-1 system to interpret target and navigational intercept instructions. Under automatic control the aircraft was then flown to the predetermined interception point. Verbal control communications were not necessary, and the MA-I system interacted with the aircraft in that the aircraft "told' the MA-1 system what it was doing and the MA-I system told the aircraft what it ought to do to carry out the intercept properly. A consensus in the ensuing dialogue resulted in appropriate automatic vectoring to the target.
Once the intercept point had been reached, and the target displayed on the radar screen as a blip, the pilot then used the left half of the unique U-shaped control stick to lock the target on the display. As soon as the lock was achieved by bracketing the scope blip with a "gate", the MA-I system took over; after pre-selecting the weapons to be used, the pilot allowed the MA-1 to determine the successful fire and release point to ensure a kill."
SAGE could also recover and land the F-106 automatically in bad weather if necessary.
I'm not positive but I believe the F-101B had only a passive datalink. The pilot followed SAGE steering commands transmitted by the datalink to his displays.
This is where the GCI phrase "follow dolly (dali)" comes from.
"Go Gate, Follow Dolly."
Even though the datalink was passive, I believe the pilot could couple the autopilot to the intercept at some point, but SAGE could not "fly" the F-101 like it did the F-106. Gums would know more.
I dropped out of F-101 school to go fly the F-100. The only thing flying the Hun was the pilot.
OL
(You are correct, F-106 DL was not peer2peer capable. I learned something new about the Draken.)
Once the intercept point had been reached, and the target displayed on the radar screen as a blip, the pilot then used the left half of the unique U-shaped control stick to lock the target on the display. As soon as the lock was achieved by bracketing the scope blip with a "gate", the MA-I system took over; after pre-selecting the weapons to be used, the pilot allowed the MA-1 to determine the successful fire and release point to ensure a kill."
SAGE could also recover and land the F-106 automatically in bad weather if necessary.
I'm not positive but I believe the F-101B had only a passive datalink. The pilot followed SAGE steering commands transmitted by the datalink to his displays.
This is where the GCI phrase "follow dolly (dali)" comes from.
"Go Gate, Follow Dolly."
Even though the datalink was passive, I believe the pilot could couple the autopilot to the intercept at some point, but SAGE could not "fly" the F-101 like it did the F-106. Gums would know more.
I dropped out of F-101 school to go fly the F-100. The only thing flying the Hun was the pilot.
OL
(You are correct, F-106 DL was not peer2peer capable. I learned something new about the Draken.)
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Here is a cool link, courtesy of Signatory...
"How to build a Gripen" http://www.mediafire.com/?od4mwmfjvjy
If you look you will see the concept
"Demand: Low maintenance costs, restrictors for maintenance and overhaul.
Solution: 1 tool for several purposes. " That's sort of thinking is what leads to making a hot engine change in 45 minutes by a team of three 'in place'. I guess one can say that we 'stole' this concept from the Americans, and the Germans too under the last part of WW2 when they used 'mass assembly', although their thought seemed to have been to use to then throw away, whereas ours was 'use and reuse' instead.
"How to build a Gripen" http://www.mediafire.com/?od4mwmfjvjy
If you look you will see the concept
"Demand: Low maintenance costs, restrictors for maintenance and overhaul.
Solution: 1 tool for several purposes. " That's sort of thinking is what leads to making a hot engine change in 45 minutes by a team of three 'in place'. I guess one can say that we 'stole' this concept from the Americans, and the Germans too under the last part of WW2 when they used 'mass assembly', although their thought seemed to have been to use to then throw away, whereas ours was 'use and reuse' instead.
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robban wrote:In real life exercise Gripens never knew what hit them.
Now THAT's wishful thinking!
In real life exercises, Gripens have owned Hornets and Falcons from the start.
Oh really?
Have you ever read what I wrote before? The Gripens had their... muzzles kicked 4:0 by Polish F-16 Block 52+ on Loyal Arrow - mainly due to be detected first.
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Sorry, it was Loyal Arrow 2009. Do You speak Polish? It was in Lotnictwo magazine from October. Article was made by maj. M.Fiszer and J. Gruszczynski.
I really don't know any source of this news in English:(
Oh, and it was 4:0 in both actions;)
I hope it will be enough.
I really don't know any source of this news in English:(
Oh, and it was 4:0 in both actions;)
I hope it will be enough.
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