F-16 versus Saab Gripen

yoron · by **yoron** » 22 Sep 2008, 21:56

I like this plane.
I mean, sure for example the F22 Raptor is extremly cool.
And expensive too :)

But the Gripen is more like a evil little mosquito.
Tailor made for inflecting some serious mosquito bites.
It even looks like one.

Here is some film footage from Red Flag -08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo00mYL-Kw

Did they take the way over Island to Alaska traveling.
This I think is from Red Flag 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr3WROD9 ... re=related

And here is "SAAB Gripen STOL Capabilities"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJQKCUjc ... re=related

skyhigh · by **skyhigh** » 03 May 2009, 06:40

I liked the JAS 39 Gripen, mainly due to its small size, multi-role capability and operation from road airbases.

The canard delta wing layout makes it very maneuverable in a dogfight against any capable 4th / 4.5 Gen adversary.

tomcat21 · by **tomcat21** » 29 Nov 2009, 09:50

According to Polish military press, Swedish Gripen were beaten by Polish F-16's Block 52 Advanced during the Bold Avenger exercise in September. The result in A-A combat was 4:0 for Poles (even they were from 10 ELT, which is the last flight equipped with F-16's and have least experience - while Swedish pilots have Gripens over a decade). The engagement was BVR, the reaon for winning was: F-16's detected Gripen first, fired first.

The same result Polish pilots achieved against Finnish Hornets.

Any comments?

koton · by **koton** » 07 Dec 2009, 21:08

Well, Sweden didn't even participate in Bold Avenger 2009, so this looks like BS. I think Bold Avenger is usually NATO only.

The Czech where there but I don't think they brought any Gripens (only an An-26 transport).

winston · by **winston** » 08 Dec 2009, 13:12

tomcat21

No information is found that at least one Saab Gripen took part in Bold Avenger 2009.
There is no information that any Saab Gripen has ever have participated in some Bold Avenger.

Before published misleading information, check the same forum:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-12950.html

Any comments?

smoker1 · by **smoker1** » 08 Dec 2009, 14:23

koton wrote:Well, Sweden didn't even participate in Bold Avenger 2009, so this looks like BS.

He's made mistake. I think he was referring to "Loyal Arrow 2009". This exercises took place in Sweden and involved Swedish Gripens and Finish F-18's as well as Polish F-16's.

tomcat21 wrote:The engagement was BVR, the reaon for winning was: F-16's detected Gripen first, fired first.

The same result Polish pilots achieved against Finnish Hornets.

Any comments? Smile

We don't know any details such as ROE but I think we can safely assume that APG-68(v)9 radar mounted in Polish F-16 is superior to PS-05/A Gripen's radar and F-18's APG-73 radar - at least their earlier versions.

loke · by **loke** » 09 Dec 2009, 11:02

Poland is flying "block 52+" I believe?

Scorpion82 · by **Scorpion82** » 09 Dec 2009, 12:24

loke wrote:Poland is flying "block 52+" I believe?

They do, though the model is designated block 52M.

tomcat21 · by **tomcat21** » 09 Dec 2009, 14:04

Ok, it was probably Loyal Arrow.
But no doubt that Polish F-16's kicked Swedish Gripens butts.

robban · by **robban** » 10 Dec 2009, 00:12

smoker1 wrote:We don't know any details such as ROE but I think we can safely assume that APG-68(v)9 radar mounted in Polish F-16 is superior to PS-05/A Gripen's radar and F-18's APG-73 radar - at least their earlier versions.

The detection range for the APG-68(v)9 is 90~105 km for RCS 5m2 target. The PS-05 detection range against similar sized target is >120km.

Take into consideration the 0.1m2 (average) RCS of the Gripen(F-16C 1.2m2), its superior maneuverability and agility, its TIDLS, and its much superior MMI, SA, EWS39 and much more modern infrastrucure, the Polish F-16's would never know what hit them.

The Gripen is far and away the more deadly aircraft.

loke · by **loke** » 10 Dec 2009, 17:15

robban wrote:The detection range for the APG-68(v)9 is 90~105 km for RCS 5m2 target. The PS-05 detection range against similar sized target is >120km.

Are you sure that the latest APG-68 does not have a longer detection range?

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/apg68/index.html

The AN/APG-68(V)9 offers a 33% increase in air-to-air detection range over earlier versions of the radar.

I may be wrong but I suspect the detection range you qoute is for the older APG-68, and if that's the case then a 33% increase in range would give it the roughly the same range as the PS-05.

Let's wait for the Gripen 1000-element AESA

robban · by **robban** » 10 Dec 2009, 17:33

Are you sure that the latest APG-68 does not have a longer detection range?

That's the number i have. Here are the numbers for earlier versions of the APG-68.

APG-68 - 70 km
APG-68(V)7 - 80 km
APG-80 - 130 km

loke · by **loke** » 10 Dec 2009, 18:34

robban wrote:
Are you sure that the latest APG-68 does not have a longer detection range?

That's the number i have. Here are the numbers for earlier versions of the APG-68.

APG-68 - 70 km
APG-68(V)7 - 80 km
APG-80 - 130 km

OK, sorry it seems I was wrong. The PS-05 is indeed impressive!

So most likely the reported results were down to ROE -- or perhaps the report was incorrect...?

exec · by **exec** » 10 Dec 2009, 20:31

Hello everybody, it's my first post here.

robban wrote:The detection range for the APG-68(v)9 is 90~105 km for RCS 5m2 target. The PS-05 detection range against similar sized target is >120km.

Well, this is 'paper data' as we call it. It's like APG-77 with its 'greater than 100 mile (185km) range and Irbis-E with its 400 range (lol). But everybody knows that Irbis-E is NOT superior to APG-77 in terms of detection or tracking range.

robban wrote:Take into consideration the 0.1m2 (average) RCS of the Gripen

This is no more than a wishful thinking. :roll:

robban wrote: the Polish F-16's would never know what hit them.

In real life exercise Gripens never knew what hit them. :wink:

loke · by **loke** » 10 Dec 2009, 21:33

exec wrote:Hello everybody, it's my first post here.

robban wrote:The detection range for the APG-68(v)9 is 90~105 km for RCS 5m2 target. The PS-05 detection range against similar sized target is >120km.

Well, this is 'paper data' as we call it. It's like APG-77 with its 'greater than 100 mile (185km) range and Irbis-E with its 400 range (lol). But everybody knows that Irbis-E is NOT superior to APG-77 in terms of detection or tracking range.

Are you claiming that the APG has a longer range than what Robban claimed, or are you claiming that the Gripen radar has a shorter range than what Robban claimed?

robban wrote:Take into consideration the 0.1m2 (average) RCS of the Gripen

This is no more than a wishful thinking.

I have actually seen that figure from a Swedish FMV document -- obviously it's a clean bird, so I don't know how relevant it is?