Viper vs. Flanker over Groom Lake

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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popcorn

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Unread post11 Jan 2017, 03:05

"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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strykerxo

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Unread post17 Jan 2017, 21:29

Same source different article: I have heard for years about our Su / Mig inventory but have not seen evidence of it.
I wonder what other engagements it has had or how modified they are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ea-51.html
You can't shot what you can't see - Unknown
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Unread post19 Jan 2017, 00:26

strykerxo wrote:Same source different article: I have heard for years about our Su / Mig inventory but have not seen evidence of it.
I wonder what other engagements it has had or how modified they are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ea-51.html

The two Su-27 Flankers that were refurbished by Pride Aircraft are two-seaters, and these photos show single-seaters. The usual presumption was that the Flankers on Nov 8th were the Pride jets operated by a DoD contractor, but that is impossible as its a single-seater.
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Unread post19 Jan 2017, 18:08

How modified would these AC be if at all? Would they have western electronics or engines? Or fly them as true to Russian std. as possible so that in an adversarial role be fully understood?
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Unread post19 Jan 2017, 22:36

strykerxo wrote:How modified would these AC be if at all? Would they have western electronics or engines? Or fly them as true to Russian std. as possible so that in an adversarial role be fully understood?

Newer Flankers like the Su-30MKI have MIL-STD-1553B bus from the factory, and some Israeli avionics, but not the radar. Its likely that the Flankers operated around Nellis have upgraded radios, as the Russians don't fit secure NATO-compatible radios to their jets.

The two Pride jets probably don't have the radar still fitted. I've heard the newer Russian radars use a similar electrical bus to the 80s-era US version (eg. early APG-63 or APG-65). Additionally, the Israeli radars have been offered to fit a Su-27 Flanker. Some MiG-21s and MiG-29s in NATO service have been completely upgraded with Israeli parts, just like the A-4K or F-5EM upgrades. The radar on the early F/A-18s, the display is analog video (functionally similar to a Commodore 64 video output) along with an MIL-STD-1553B for controlling the radar functions.

The photos Pride released show mainly steam gauges, and the factory radar display would likely have been an analog CRT. I'd say everything but the radios, engine instruments, and basic flight instruments removed. Pride would have upgraded the radios, and added civilian FMS displays for navigation.

It is likely that Nellis MiGs and Flankers use comparable western avionics, as Russian parts supply is limited.
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Unread post22 Jan 2017, 18:53

So... I take this to mean the same Russian engines ? If so, that'd make the most sense as an accurate representation of the threat (if not very maintenance friendly)!

They don't appear to be MKI's though, and unless they're SU-30's no thrust vectoring ?
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Unread post26 Jan 2017, 04:59

I just finish reading Red Eagles by Steve Davies, and he briefly mentions at the end of the book seeing pictures of similar events going back as far at 2009, so this is not new.
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Unread post26 Jan 2017, 19:33

MVSGas wrote:I just finish reading Red Eagles by Steve Davies, and he briefly mentions at the end of the book seeing pictures of similar events going back as far at 2009, so this is not new.

Further back than that. A relatively large number of Ukrainian Su-27s were "cannibalized" Post-USSR but not verified as in storage or scrapped, and its possible a few ended up in US hands. Flankers have been reportedly seen over Groom Lake in the late 90s. The stinger on the tail makes it clear they were not MiG-29s.

mixelflick wrote:So... I take this to mean the same Russian engines ? If so, that'd make the most sense as an accurate representation of the threat (if not very maintenance friendly)!

They don't appear to be MKI's though, and unless they're SU-30's no thrust vectoring ?

The training opportunity specific to the thrust vectoring is provided by F-22s. There was an interview mentioning rookie F-22 pilots making the same mistake as the rookie MKI pilots; Not maintaining energy in high-alpha maneuvers. TV really only matters in tight WVR dogfights, as far as training is concerned.

Educated guess; These Su-27s are using Russian engines. Overhaul components could actually be alternately sourced. Not sure specifically about the AL-31 (Sukhoi Su-27 series), but remember there is a relatively high number of MiG-29s (RD-33 engines) in NATO service, and Poland does have a RD-33/MiG-29 parts production program. Indian Su-30MKI jets use license produced parts from HAL in the AL-31 engines, with varying results.
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Unread post27 Jan 2017, 16:29

Interesting..

I wonder what the outcome of the SU-27 vs F-16 dogfight was. Surely though, we've been doing this for some time. There are always new weapons, tactics etc to test. The pictures really do illustrate just how big the Flanker is. If the F-15's a flying tennis court...
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Unread post31 Jan 2017, 00:07

Details of these Groom Lake engagements would be a good read, is there open source details of engagements with former East block countries that have or had Mig and Su aircraft. On the flip side the Russians surely had access to the Iranian F-14, is there any western AC that are known in Russian or Chinese hands?
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Unread post31 Jan 2017, 09:00

I think there is some open source info about air to air engagements between US made aircraft and Soviet manufactured aircraft... I believe these engagements took place in early 1991 in the airspace over some Middle East country. Even though the primary American aircraft used was the F-15 (phooey!), it still didn't turn out too well for the MiGs. :devil:
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Unread post01 Feb 2017, 20:24

strykerxo wrote:Same source different article: I have heard for years about our Su / Mig inventory but have not seen evidence of it.
I wonder what other engagements it has had or how modified they are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ea-51.html


I lived under the high speed corridor in Alabama from 2009-2012. Late in 2009 I had at least one Su-27 go over us. I saw it twice, but I'm not sure if it was the same aircraft on two different days, or two different aircraft.

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