UAE Getting F-35s with New Israeli Peace Deal?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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element1loop

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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 03:29

marauder2048 wrote:The US somehow historically managed the Greek and Turk FMS sales just fine.


Not "just fine" though, it's still a deeply dysfunctional relationship. Greeks inherited S300PMU off Cyprus after 1998, when Turkey threatened to attack Cyprus if they did not send them back to Russia, so Erdogan countered this with S400, 15 years later. Petty? Yeah, you could say that. Turkey has been prepared to destroy its alliance and relationships with the US and NATO, for a very long time.

Erdogan is petty, he's simply pouting because he's not getting the F-35, and someone else might get it instead.

Times of Israel

UAE official reportedly rebuffs Netanyahu denial he okayed F-35 sale

By TOI STAFF and AGENCIES

18 August 2020

… Netanyahu tweeted on Tuesday morning that the story by the Yedioth Ahronoth daily was “utter fake news.” In a statement, Netanyahu’s office said the prime minister has opposed the sale of F-35s and other advanced weapons to any country in the Middle East, including Arab countries that have peace agreements with Israel. But an Emirati official [i.e. an anon claim] told Yedioth on Tuesday night that Netanyahu gave his approval to the arms deal between the US and UAE as part of the agreement to form Israeli-UAE diplomatic ties, a development which could see Israel’s military edge in the region compromised. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on a phone call with UAE leader Mohammed Bin Zayed on August 13, 2020. (Kobi Gideon/PMO) The US had also reportedly denied the report, with a White House statement carried by Hebrew-language media on Tuesday evening saying there was no secret arms deal included in the UAE-Israel agreement. However, former White House Mideast peace envoy Jason Greenblatt appeared to hint at the possibility of there having been a backroom deal for Israel to remove its objections. “Whatever happened behind closed doors I’m sure makes sense, even if it might look more flexible than in the past,” he told Israel’s Army Radio. …

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-ua ... nced-jets/


White House denies it.

Netanyahu denies it.

And did anyone in the UAE actually directly claim they’re lying about this?

This looks like fake news to me.
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madrat

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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 11:25

This is how their culture works. In the west we see it as doublespeak and lies, but there is an intelligent strategy at play.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 12:58

Pray tell us - please explain this intelligent strategy at play and by whom is it practiced - so that we all know. TAH.
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mixelflick

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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 15:48

spazsinbad wrote:'mixelflick' is back with the FUD: "... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the US could ground them at will...." Pray tell how will this be done and IF possible why would the UAE allow such a function and don't tell me it is all a secret. SPILL! :wink:


I didn't say I knew HOW. I did say it wouldn't surprise me.

The F-35 is the most computer/line of code etc. dependent fighter yet, yes? The ALIS system (which I understand is going away) was smart enough to tell the rest of the F-35 ecosystem what was wrong with it, order parts before inventory ran out, etc.. For all of the brain power in the US, I don't think inserting malware, virues or what have you via some common (or connected) system is out of the realm of possibility.

It wouldn't surprise me, anyway..
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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 16:23

As stated: FUD.
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Unread post26 Aug 2020, 23:42

spazsinbad wrote:Pray tell us - please explain this intelligent strategy at play and by whom is it practiced - so that we all know. TAH.

It's all made in context for whomever they intended. They can tell two parties completely polarized messages and it is not a lie due to context. Unless you knew context it is impossible to decypher their message. This has been going on for millennia.
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Unread post27 Aug 2020, 01:36

So just political doublespeak - double double toil & truble - not intelligent if strategy brings the RONG outcome for both.
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Aug 2020, 14:13

spazsinbad wrote:As stated: FUD.


No idea what you mean by FUD.

In other news, it seems I'm not the only one who thinks this capability wouldn't be surprising...

"Exerting this kind of control over any future UAE F-35 fleet may actually be even easier to do given the Joint Strike Fighter's cloud-based support infrastructure, known as the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), and the planned successor to that system, the Operational Data Integrated Network (ODIN). At present, ALIS, which you can read about more in detail in this past War Zone piece, acts as a conduit through which a wide swath of data passes.

This data includes, as its name implies, information about maintenance and logistics issues, including the diagnosing of faults and the ordering of replacement parts, as well as new software upgrades. In addition, however, it is also the loading point for operational mission packages, which include flight route and target information, as well as locations of possible threats and other hazards. At the completion of a mission, sensor data and other details come out the same way to help with debriefing and future mission planning.


How deeply integrated ALIS has been into every aspect of F-35 operations has been a source of concern for other U.S. allies in the past, who worried that it could be grabbing sensitive information and putting it on U.S. government or Lockheed Martin servers. A number of Joint Strike Fighter program participants have since developed their own firewalls to prevent the outflow of certain information, but still have to rely on the computerized system for day-to-day operations.

Loss of access to ALIS could be severely limiting, if not totally debilitating to an F-35 operator in short order."

I guess Israel insisting that they disconnect from this network is just a coincidence? Like you say - nothing to worry about, right? Then why the disconnect? Why not just integrate as planned with the rest of the fleet? Seems to me they were concerned about this "possibility" too...

Inn, before "Anything printed by the War Zone isn't credible..."
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Unread post28 Aug 2020, 14:53

All this has been 'worried' about before today. IF a country does not like the setup then they should not participate. As stated countries have firewalls in place to filter data to their requirements, & they participate in the program to this day.

I'm pleased you went to the trouble to NOT post the URL for the quote used above - it is here: MORE FUD than FUD:

FUD = Fear Uncertainty Doubt : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_unc ... _and_doubt
Here's How The United States Could Allay Israeli Concerns Over Selling F-35s To The UAE
27 Aug 2020 Joseph Trevithick

"...[scroll down to the heading for the quote above]: "The F-35's heavily networked nature...

...The U.S. military is also now in the process of transition from ALIS, which has been long criticized for not working properly, a saga you can read about in more detail in this past War Zone piece, to ODIN. In addition to hopefully addressing many of the long-standing issues with ALIS, this new system is notably a U.S. government-owned product, rather than proprietary Lockheed Martin one. This raises the possibility that the U.S. government may be able to further develop an export-specific version with reduced capabilities and built-in backdoor safeguards for certain future customers, even beyond the UAE...." [so if any potential buyer does not like this potential setup then they should not buy]

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... to-the-uae
Last edited by spazsinbad on 28 Aug 2020, 15:08, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post28 Aug 2020, 14:57

Loss of access to ALIS could be severely limiting, if not totally debilitating to an F-35 operator in short order."

I guess Israel insisting that they disconnect from this network is just a coincidence? Like you say - nothing to worry about, right? Then why the disconnect? Why not just integrate as planned with the rest of the fleet? Seems to me they were concerned about this "possibility" too...

. . . Exactly. Israel is too smart

Also why my work computer is NOT connected to the "interweb."
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Unread post28 Aug 2020, 22:03

spazsinbad wrote:As stated: FUD.

Indeed. There are several sanity checks available. For example even if it would be techically feasible to have a kill switch, it would be financially disastrous. Who would buy US fighters again after such scheme would be revealed?
Another one is that there's no need for one. Simply cutting off related activities (like mid-life upgrade) would ground them after a short while.
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Unread post30 Aug 2020, 03:45

usafr wrote: . . . Exactly. Israel is too smart


It's not hard to understand why Israel would feel it's essential to be able to operate free as possible from the US political fashion and whim of populist zeitgeist. Even so, does being out of ALIS preserve Israel from having spares cut? How?

I don't see how Washington loses ultimate leverage over Israel because of that.
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Unread post31 Aug 2020, 02:27

The US could limit the number of F-35's provided to the UAE and other Gulf States. While, possibly increasing the number going to the IDF/AF (cancel additional F-15's and buy more F-35's).....This along with other options could provide a solution to the problem.


As a matter of fact the US could offer a small mix of both New F-35's and additional F-15's.... :|
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Unread post31 Aug 2020, 04:05

Thing is, I can't see where UAE were promised F-35s. It was floated by Trump as something to consider, but the assertion that Isreal's PM intervened, to push Trump, for UAE to get F-35, to secure normalization of relations between UAE and Israel, appears to be entirely false. And that was the initial outsourced anon claim, from a UAE Journalist, that's behind all this.

Seems to be a classic speculative media beat-up.
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Unread post31 Aug 2020, 05:07

element1loop wrote:Thing is, I can't see where UAE were promised F-35s. It was floated by Trump as something to consider, but the assertion that Isreal's PM intervened, to push Trump, for UAE to get F-35, to secure normalization of relations between UAE and Israel, appears to be entirely false. And that was the initial outsourced anon claim, from a UAE Journalist, that's behind all this.

Seems to be a classic speculative media beat-up.



The US likely told most of the Gulf States (Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE). That the F-35 was on the table as a "future" option. Without identifying a specific time table....


Then the Israel / UAE Deal comes along. Giving the media an issue to exploit and attack Trump with! :?

Remember, much of the global media is no friend of President Trump.
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