UAE Getting F-35s with New Israeli Peace Deal?

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element1loop

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Unread post22 Aug 2020, 03:59

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, this is really all about nothing. As the US likely will sell the F-35 at some point to a number of Gulf States. While, the only question was when....Which, most believe was sometime off.


Yup, just wondering what was it that the USA secured, via this prospect? The Trump sure didn't put this 'offer' on the table to make an Israeli PM happy, which is how it's been digested and regurgitated (though this may be the convenient distraction to use in the circumstances).
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magitsu

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Unread post22 Aug 2020, 15:39

It's likely an arranged foreign policy victory to help Trump's re-election. It might look conditional and shallow in the long term. After all we just read an article how 4 men in the congress have barred weapon sales to Turkey for around two years. So Trump admin probably can't deliver if they've promised. Apparently Kushner has been the man in charge and he probably has few reasons of his own why this is worth exploring. There was one article which stated that Netanyahu would've given his ok for the F-35 sale, but the air is thick with info-ops.

They made a move, no significant initial payoff.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Aug 2020, 05:04

Trump would sure like a big order of F-35's just before the US Presidential Elections in November. So, it could happen....That said, Israel would have to maintain it's qualitative edge.


So, it's possible Trump may have offered additional "aid" for it's support of an F-35 sale to the UAE. If, only in acquiesce on the part of Israel.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Aug 2020, 05:59

QUOTE:


Kushner: Sale of F-35s to UAE is more likely after normalization deal.

White House senior adviser Jared Kushner told CNN Sunday that the U.S.-brokered normalization deal between Israel and the UAE increases the probability that the Trump administration would agree to sell F-35 jets to the UAE.

Why it matters: Israel is the only country in the Middle East to possess the F-35, the United States' most advanced fighter aircraft. Reports that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signed off on potential sales to the UAE — which he denies — ignited a political controversy in Israel.

What he's saying: The issue is currently under review by the State Department and the Pentagon, Kushner said.
He stressed that the Trump administration is committed to maintaining Israel’s qualitative military edge, but added that the UAE is a good military partner for the U.S. and that there's a chance the F-35 deal will take place after Israel-UAE normalization.

The big picture: Kushner echoed similar statements by Emirati officials on the issue. The UAE's minister of state for foreign affairs, Anwar Gargash, said last Thursday that his country's normalization deal with Israel should "make it easier" to buy F-35 fighter jets from the U.S.

"We have legitimate requests that are there and we ought to get them," Gargash said in a virtual briefing to the Atlantic Council.

"Now the whole idea of a state of war with Israel will no longer exist, and so it will make it easier for the U.S. to sell us the planes."

Gargash said he doesn't understand why Israel is so concerned about the potential sale. “I don’t know how much of it is domestic Israeli politics," he said.

https://www.axios.com/jared-kushner-f35 ... 5cfb3.html
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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Aug 2020, 16:35

For the first time in ages, the Israeli air force's qualatative edge could come into question..

Egypt will soon take delivery of SU-35's, which at least on paper are awful close to Israel's F-15's in the air to air realm. Of course, they have the F-35 up their sleeve to more than even the score but given this new info... the UAE could be next.

Frankly though, I'll be shocked if it happens. And you can bet the UAE's F-35's will be heavily downgraded, at least in comparison to Israel's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the US could ground them at will. Such is the relationship between the US and Israel...
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talkitron

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 00:50

The UAE will not meet with Israel in the UN until Israel supports the F-35 sale.

https://www.axios.com/uae-f-35-arms-dea ... ce=twitter
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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 01:35

'mixelflick' is back with the FUD: "... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the US could ground them at will...." Pray tell how will this be done and IF possible why would the UAE allow such a function and don't tell me it is all a secret. SPILL! :wink:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 01:37

talkitron wrote:The UAE will not meet with Israel in the UN until Israel supports the F-35 sale.

https://www.axios.com/uae-f-35-arms-dea ... ce=twitter



Just the usual politics. Honestly, hard to believe much of what is written these days...... :|
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marauder2048

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 02:05

The whole situation sends a horrible message that Israel dictates US foreign policy and advanced weapons sales.

The Israeli-Gulf Arab "conflict" has been a practical non-issue for decades. Yes, the UAE was annoyed when
a Mossad hit team assassinated a Palestinian on UAE territory because no sovereign state likes foreign
hit squads operating with perceived impunity.

And I would just point out that the Block 60 F-16s were superior to anything in the Israeli inventory
and the UAE paid hard cash for them. They didn't need US foreign military aid.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 02:14

marauder2048 wrote:The whole situation sends a horrible message that Israel dictates US foreign policy and advanced weapons sales.

The Israeli-Gulf Arab "conflict" has been a practical non-issue for decades. Yes, the UAE was annoyed when
a Mossad hit team assassinated a Palestinian on UAE territory because no sovereign state likes foreign
hit squads operating with perceived impunity.

And I would just point out that the Block 60 F-16s were superior to anything in the Israeli inventory
and the UAE paid hard cash for them. They didn't need US foreign military aid.


You want to point a finger than point it at the media. Which, as usual is spinning the facts to create a controversy.

Sure Israel would "prefer" the US doesn't sell the F-35 to Gulf Nations. This is nothing new nor surprising to anyone! Yet, the Media will churn up the story to make just another sensational headline.

Yet, surprisingly people keep buying it day after day........ :?

BTW Israel "doesn't" dictate US foreign policy and advanced weapons sales. :doh:
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 25 Aug 2020, 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 02:15

Someone needs an update. Israel has been a factor in EVERY US arms sale in the region since the 1970s. It was made law in 2008.

In 2008, Congress enacted legislation requiring that any proposed U.S. arms sale to “any country in the Middle East other than Israel” must include a notification to Congress with a “determination that the sale or export of such would not adversely affect Israel’s qualitative military edge over military threats to Israel.”

§36(h) of the Arms Export Control Act, which contains the “qualitative military edge” requirement, was added by §201(d) of the Naval Vessel Transfer Act of 2008 (P.L. 110-429). The Act defines QME as “the ability to counter and defeat any credible conventional military threat from any individual state or possible coalition of states or from nonstate actors, while sustaining minimal damages and casualties, through the use of superior military means, possessed in sufficient quantity, including weapons, command, control, communication, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities that in their technical characteristics are superior in capability to those of such other individual or possible coalition of states or nonstate actors.” The details of official U.S. assessments of QME are generally classified.
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marauder2048

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 03:07

weasel1962 wrote:Someone needs an update. Israel has been a factor in EVERY US arms sale in the region since the 1970s. It was made law in 2008.

In 2008, Congress enacted legislation requiring that any proposed U.S. arms sale to “any country in the Middle East other than Israel” must include a notification to Congress with a “determination that the sale or export of such would not adversely affect Israel’s qualitative military edge over military threats to Israel.”

§36(h) of the Arms Export Control Act, which contains the “qualitative military edge” requirement, was added by §201(d) of the Naval Vessel Transfer Act of 2008 (P.L. 110-429). The Act defines QME as “the ability to counter and defeat any credible conventional military threat from any individual state or possible coalition of states or from nonstate actors, while sustaining minimal damages and casualties, through the use of superior military means, possessed in sufficient quantity, including weapons, command, control, communication, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities that in their technical characteristics are superior in capability to those of such other individual or possible coalition of states or nonstate actors.” The details of official U.S. assessments of QME are generally classified.



Someone needs to understand the original point. The above is a *US* veto not an Israeli veto.
It's our say. Not their say.

And when it comes to Israeli FMS sales it's our money; not their money.

For the Gulf Arabs, it's their money and they give us *free* fuel when the US operates in their defense.
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weasel1962

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 06:44

The reality is a bit more nuanced. The Israeli lobby in congress is pretty powerful where it comes to influence. Since Israel is the ultimate user, there's coordination over how monies incl aid to Israel is spent. As to sales to arab states, sure, Israel doesn't have a veto, never said it was a veto. However, it is a factor that enters into every decision. if the QME can't be justified, the sale doesn't go thru. One wonders whether they actually consult Israel on the QME...I'd leave to the rest to consider whether it works like a veto or not. The current flavor of the week is "it is what it is".
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 07:34

Well said...
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marauder2048

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Unread post25 Aug 2020, 17:18

weasel1962 wrote:The reality is a bit more nuanced.


And irrelevant if the Israelis are perceived as dictating US weapons export policy in the region.

The UAE is *treating* the Israelis as if they have the final say.

That would suggest, given the huge sums involved, that the Israelis do in fact dictate the matter.

I'm open to a more charitable interpretation.

weasel1962 wrote:The Israeli lobby in congress is pretty powerful where it comes to influence. Since Israel is the ultimate user, there's coordination over how monies incl aid to Israel is spent.


If you are arguing that there would more oversight on how US foreign military aid gets spent
vs. how another country wants to spend its money I wouldn't disagree.

weasel1962 wrote:As to sales to arab states, sure, Israel doesn't have a veto, never said it was a veto. However, it is a factor that enters into every decision. if the QME can't be justified, the sale doesn't go thru. One wonders whether they actually consult Israel on the QME...I'd leave to the rest to consider whether it works like a veto or not. The current flavor of the week is "it is what it is".


How weapons sales to one US ally might impact other US allies is a total legitimate consideration.
The US somehow historically managed the Greek and Turk FMS sales just fine.
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