F-35 is a good deal judging by cost-per-effect: think tank

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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lbk000

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Unread post26 Jul 2020, 21:15

The proliferation of stealth exerts tremendous pressure on competing nations to achieve symmetrical parity when before they may have felt more freedom to pursue asymmetrical strategies that are more conducive to their own national situation. The technological and cultural drain exerted by this threat-in-being will cost the adversary more to match-and-counter than it costs America.
Most of all, it preserves doctrinal initiative. Everyone's playbooks have to be rewritten to account for it now, whether they like it or not.

How do you measure the worth of that?
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ricnunes

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Unread post27 Jul 2020, 12:10

First of all, I fully echo Gums and lbk000 words!

USMilFan wrote:...intangible... ...tangible...


You want something 'tangible' (regarding the F-35)??

So, here's something which I believe is quite 'tangible' within your 'vocabulary':
- The F-35 is the most advanced fighter aircraft in existence and this not only in terms of Stealth/Low RCS but also and specially in terms of 'avionics'. It's so advanced in this later regard that there's no need for a twin-seat training/conversion variant like all the other competitors need (Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet and Gripen for example) which means that all the pilot training/conversion that traditionally needs to be done using twin-seat training/conversion variants, in the F-35 this is done using simulators instead. And what does this mean?
It means that a F-35 fleet will need to actually fly much less hours during pilot training (a great percentage of flight hours during peacetime, I believe) compared to any of its competitors which means that if the aircraft (F-35) need to fly less hours during a certain period (a year for instance) than in the long run it will be more affordable to maintain compared to its competitors.

Is this 'tangible' enough for you?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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quicksilver

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Unread post27 Jul 2020, 16:21

He asked for other examples of value-adding intangibles, to wit — “Can you think of other intangibles adding value to the F-35?“

For example, “temporally-fleeting but circumstantially-relevant shared situational awareness.“ Recall the anecdotes from leaders of a Hill unit at early Red Flag(s) about the performance of some of his young pilots.
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Jul 2020, 16:34

lbk000 wrote:The proliferation of stealth exerts tremendous pressure on competing nations to achieve symmetrical parity when before they may have felt more freedom to pursue asymmetrical strategies that are more conducive to their own national situation. The technological and cultural drain exerted by this threat-in-being will cost the adversary more to match-and-counter than it costs America.
Most of all, it preserves doctrinal initiative. Everyone's playbooks have to be rewritten to account for it now, whether they like it or not.

How do you measure the worth of that?


Well said...
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Unread post27 Jul 2020, 16:38

quicksilver wrote:He asked for other examples of value-adding intangibles, to wit — “Can you think of other intangibles adding value to the F-35?“

For example, “temporally-fleeting but circumstantially-relevant shared situational awareness.“ Recall the anecdotes from leaders of a Hill unit at early Red Flag(s) about the performance of some of his young pilots.


Well, he first asked the following:
One aircraft, Aircraft A, is manufactured by Dassault, and the other, Aircraft B, is made by Lockheed-Martin. A source that both you and your friend trust reports that Aircraft A’s CPFH is $25,000, while Aircraft B’s is $30,000. Which aircraft is more efficient to operate?


Then others, namely beepa replied using other words that the savings by being able to return pilots safely back (while at the same time and as previously mentioned, being able to perform missions much better) is major F-35 advantage in terms of future operational costs.
After this he stated that such advantage is 'intangible' and as such I decided to post a 'tangible' advantage :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post27 Jul 2020, 20:23

I don't know if anyone else posted the article below but in case not, I feel that this could the right thread to post it:

Source:
https://www.f35.com/news/detail/three-t ... ustainment

Three Things to Know About F-35 Sustainment

...

The F-35 Enterprise is Taking Action to Reduce Costs

Reducing F-35 Operations & Support (O&S) costs and increasing reliability remains a top priority. We are continuing to invest in innovation and aggressively drive costs down, in partnership with our government and industry partners, to achieve life-cycle cost reduction goals. As more and more F-35s enter service, resources are being optimized across the fleet, including logistics data from 290,000-plus flight hours – to target the most significant cost and readiness drivers.

The F-35 team continues to conduct supply chain competitions, build supply chain capacity, synchronize spare buys, improve parts reliability and maintainability, implement advanced analytics tools, accelerate modifications of earlier aircraft, and support the stand-up of government-led regional warehouses and repair depots. Over the past five years, we have reduced the Lockheed Martin portion of the F-35 cost per flight hour (CPFH) by 38%. With the investments we are making today, lessons we’re learning and the scaling of the fleet, we expect to drive the Lockheed Martin F-35 CPFH down another 50% in the next five years.

The F-35 program is delivering 5th Gen sustainment today and we’re continuing to invest in an advanced, cost-effective 5th Generation airpower future.

“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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USMilFan

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Unread post28 Jul 2020, 01:27

ricnunes wrote:After this he stated that such advantage is 'intangible'...

Just to clarify, I did no such thing, and I didn’t imply it, either. So far, I have classified only one statement in this entire thread as an intangible, and that was the quote from Gums. Any inferences made about beepa’s comments are solely yours, ricnunes.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Jul 2020, 14:53

USMilFan wrote:
ricnunes wrote:After this he stated that such advantage is 'intangible'...

Just to clarify, I did no such thing, and I didn’t imply it, either. So far, I have classified only one statement in this entire thread as an intangible, and that was the quote from Gums. Any inferences made about beepa’s comments are solely yours, ricnunes.


Whatever...
Anyway, several reasons/factors were given to you that shows that the F-35 will be just as affordable and likely even more affordable (specially in the future) in terms of sustainment costs compared to current 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft and the point of my last posts, namely my first post in this page and my last post here in this same page was to show you two (2) more of such reasons/factors.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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USMilFan

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Unread post31 Jul 2020, 19:07

Perhaps one of the most valuable and exciting intangibles the F-35 possesses is its plasticity, which refers to the aircraft’s inherent ability to adapt readily to evolving threats across a vast range of the threat spectrum. I first learned about this idea from Lt. Col. Chip Berke at his now-famous presentation at the 2015 Copenhagen Conference as shown in a utube vid whose link is below. The relevant discussion runs from about 19:45 to 21:10 of the clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxK6O5--9Z0

F-35 plasticity seems to be materializing already as indicated in the following quotes from an avweek article, linked below.


https://aviationweek.com/ad-week/length ... uture-role

“By the end of the decade, operating the F-35 could be very different from how the aircraft’s designers in the late 1990s had anticipated.”

“As the next decade unfolds, the JPO and Lockheed will seek to add capabilities that have become defined only within the last decade and to adopt several concepts, including Skyborg and SiAW, that have emerged only recently.”


Many others on this forum are better equipped than I am to identify and describe the combat value of various F-35 plasticities; therefore, I invite others to offer specific examples of F-35 plasticities if they wish.
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outlaw162

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Unread post31 Jul 2020, 19:59

Much as the Viper was known as the 'Lectric Jet', I wonder if the F-35 will ever be known as the 'Plastic Jet', which admittedly would be an improvement over 'Lightening' ?

Mr. McGuire: I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.
Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?
Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?


You can never have too many great buzzwords. :D
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marauder2048

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Unread post31 Jul 2020, 20:40

USMilFan wrote:https://aviationweek.com/ad-week/length ... uture-role

“By the end of the decade, operating the F-35 could be very different from how the aircraft’s designers in the late 1990s had anticipated.”

“As the next decade unfolds, the JPO and Lockheed will seek to add capabilities that have become defined only within the last decade and to adopt several concepts, including Skyborg and SiAW, that have emerged only recently.”


Manned-unmanned teaming was something like Lockheed was working on for The F-35 14 years ago.
Quite why a fast strike weapon like SiAW represents a very different capability or concept is not explained.

There are metrics for combat effectiveness and sustainment that will demonstrate the utility of the F-35
relative to other aircraft but we've been at pains to point out to you that CPFH is not, in general, a useful metric.
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magitsu

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Unread post31 Jul 2020, 21:12

USMilFan wrote:Many others on this forum are better equipped than I am to identify and describe the combat value of various F-35 plasticities; therefore, I invite others to offer specific examples of F-35 plasticities if they wish.

Search with Cognitive EW + F-35. It's a good example of plasticity.

Here's a start:
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=28880
https://www.mwrf.com/markets/defense/ar ... protection
http://interactive.aviationtoday.com/av ... -learning/
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/12/who ... r-answers/
https://breakingdefense.com/tag/cogniti ... c-warfare/
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USMilFan

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Unread post01 Aug 2020, 00:30

“…we've been at pains to point out to you that CPFH is not, in general, a useful metric.”

Well, I’ve got some great news for you, marauder, that will instantly cure your pain: it is I who have taken considerable effort to point out to everyone here at f-16.net that CPFH is not ever a useful metric in any sense whatsoever. You must have me confused with someone else. I point to my earlier comments in this very thread regarding CPFH for proof. Furthermore, it is not at all difficult or time-consuming to read my brief but lengthy history of complaining mightily of CPFH defects and deficiencies over many years since my posting history consists of barely 100+ posts total. CPFH discussions never cease to cause me lots and lots of eyerolling amusement.

“There are metrics for combat effectiveness and sustainment that will demonstrate the utility of the F-35 relative to other aircraft…”

marauder, can you please identify a few of these metrics? In the interest of remaining on topic, I’m interested specifically in those metrics that demonstrate value. Thanks for your help with this.


Great movie reference related to the current buzzword, outlaw. Lots of great symbolism, some subtle, and others not so subtle, in that flick. One of my favorites.


magitsu, wow, what a great set of resources you’ve provided. I deeply appreciated all the effort you made to provide such a vast wealth of information on cognitive EW, etc. Many thanks to you—you’re the best! I’ve only read the first article so far, but I plan to read everything you listed soon. What a great contribution you've made to this discussion. Those articles contain lots of great detail about F-35 plasticities indeed.
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quicksilver

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Unread post01 Aug 2020, 03:18

“Well, I’ve got some great news for you, marauder, that will instantly cure your pain: it is I who have taken considerable effort to point out to everyone here at f-16.net that CPFH is not ever a useful metric in any sense whatsoever. You must have me confused with someone else...” — usmf

I agree w usmf on this
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marauder2048

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 18:09

USMilFan wrote:read my brief but lengthy history


I've read PhD dissertations that are more concise and accessible.

USMilFan wrote:“There are metrics for combat effectiveness and sustainment that will demonstrate the utility of the F-35 relative to other aircraft…”

marauder, can you please identify a few of these metrics? In the interest of remaining on topic, I’m interested specifically in those metrics that demonstrate value. Thanks for your help with this.


"Mission reliability" the metric that's been a KPP for the F-35 since the program's inception.
It really should have been adopted, as was proposed, throughout the US fixed-wing fleet.
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