S-400 and F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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jessmo112

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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 15:30

Holy leaping walls of text Batman!!

So in a nutshell does that translate to stealth doesn't work? Even after.

*Gulf war 1 F-117s decimate Iraq?

*Serbia B-2s roam around unmolested

*F-22s over Syria flying unmolested untracked

*F-35s over Syria carrying out strikes with impunity

* stealthy drones and choppers flying in and out of Pakistan with impunity. Real time footage via stealth drone.

Numerous other exercises by other countries at the top of the food chain, including China who finally realized they dangers they are in facing U.S. stealth air craft.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 15:35

Those darn Chinese and there propaganda.
They should know by now stealth doesnt work.

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-b ... wan-2020-9
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tank-top

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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 16:48

Don’t forget about General Farzad Ismaili.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 17:25

hocum wrote:If stealth use their radar or open bays/gears off - it's not a stealth anymore, so it can't survey and attack immediatly by yourself without fired at own, and must use only full self-guided ammunitions. Or stealth will be fired on instantly.

Detection alone isn't enough, to attack target you need to track and have a firing solution
Missile are not moving at speed of light so to attack an aircraft, the missile must LEAD it. In other words you don't launch missile at the current location of your target but the expected future location. To do that, you need to know the distance to the stealth aircraft, as well as its direction, heading, altitude and speed. Let say the stealth aircraft uses its radar, the only thing you will know is the general direction of that aircraft, but not the distance or altitude or speed or heading, so you can't get a firing solution for your missile. As a result, you can't launch your missiles
Secondly, the simple radio wave alert doesn't let you identify that the emitter is a stealth aircraft so if you launch your SAM at any radio emitter, you will spend most of your SAM attacking flying decoys rather than actual aircraft, to make thing worse, you might not hit anything either if they use cooperative blinking jamming tactics
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hocum wrote:Really? So much words and pictures from you, and all about radar waves, with simple book theory, without any your own mindwork. It is showing something, I suspect. :wink:
Do you reject that stealth plane exellent visible by human eye, don't you? Optic/thermovisors scopes/cameras can easyly observe and tracking stealth aircraft. Buk, Vyitaz, Osa, Pantsir, Thor, Tunguska, Strela-10, Kub/Kvadrat has it. Su and Migs has it. Is it incorrect representation of the fact?

You can see stealth aircraft with optical and thermal system but there are pretty good reasons why thermal and optical systems are mostly integral parts of short and medium range system rather than long range one:
Firstly, passive system such as IRST, optical sensor can't measure range to target and speed of target by themselves. You need to rely on a laser range finder (LRF) to calculate the distance to target and speed, and from that you can get a firing solution for your missile. But the laser doesn't have very long range.
For example: OLS-35 system on Su-35S can detect Su-30 from 90 km in tail aspect, 35 km from frontal aspect. But the laser range measurement distance is only 20 km. So even though you can detect target from longer distance, you can't launch your missile from further than 20 km.
Image

Secondly, thermal and visual radiation are blocked by rain, snow, clouds. You can have the best IR system in the world, but if a cloud is between you and your target, you can't detect them
Image

Last but not least, stealth aircraft do have methods to reduce their infrared signature:
From coating to reduce emissivity
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To cooling vent to cool the nacelle bays
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to cooled blocker to reduce engine infrared signature
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To Cooled engine nozzle
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hocum wrote:But you did "incorrect representation" (more correct that you just missed uncomfort question) that normally in position area has THREE main complexes in very different places. Plane can absorb wave from any direction with high cedenbals must looks like an electromagnetic anechoic chamber, reversal outspace. It hasn't even hint of aerodinamics at all. So it isn't especially against stealth even - complexes need to reload their rockets after launches, refresh personnel, stops for maitenance and repair... 8)

Stealth aircraft doesn't need to be stealth in all direction to be effective, it only need to be stealthy in important direction. What you said about three main complexes in different places is much easier said than done.
For example: consider this radar scattering model
Image
We can see the high radar cross section spike located at 30° off boresight (the total low RCS cone at the front is 60°) . So to take advantage of the high RCS spikes, your radars must be located in a way that if you draw a 2 line from the 2 radar to the stealth aircraft, the angle the 2 radar makes with the stealth aircraft is greater than 60°.

But that isn't the only problem, a ground radar emitting will shows its location on aircraft ESM however unlike an airborne emitter, a ground radar can't move very fast and they can't change altitude very fast like an aircraft so air to surface missile doesn't have to LEAD the target, they can be fired at the current target location instead of future predicted location like an anti air missile. In laymen words, a ground radar and an airborne radar will both show up on ESM system when they are transmitting and they can both disappear by going offline but a ground radar can't move very far from the starting location while an aircraft can. So anti radar are a threat to ground radar but they are almost useless against an aircraft.
AARGM-ER range is 300 km, and it fit inside F-35, so for your radar station to track F-35 and doesn't get killed, it must be further than 300 km from the F-35
Using trigonometry, you will see that the two radar stations must further than 300 km each other to full fill both conditions
sss.PNG

Then come the next problem: radar horizon
supposing the radar height is 10 meters, the maximum distance that it can detect an aircraft at 14000 ft is 282 km, so if you put two radar more than 282 km apart then only one of them can have line of sight to the stealth aircraft.
Image
radar horizon.PNG
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 18:30

hocum wrote:Antenna geometry can't cheat by any materials or computer modelling. In another case, nobody would construct miles/kilometras length antenna arrays for submarine linking, for example. Just special materials and computer modelling "phasets surfaces", implement in reversal direction - from absorbing to emitting waves.

There is no cheat, you lack the basic physic knowledge needed to understand the fundamental of radio wave and radar so you parroting the common stereotype theories without understand what they truly mean
Antenna area and length is dictated by directivity requirement, more focus beam need bigger antenna. Lower frequency need bigger antenna for the same level of directivity as high frequency
Image
You want to see a small antenna transmitting and receiving low frequency when directivity isn't needed, look no further than your own mobile phone, they can receive and transmit at 850 MHz
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hocum wrote:It is a matter of fundamental metric of our Riman space. If object is too small/thin - there is no any inluence on wave, that's all. If you can manipulate this - you can manipulate with our space, create hyperdrives, warp portals and so on. If the steals lost its coverage - it becomes much more visible, even by all another complex measures.

There is so much nonsense your comment that it is almost laughable
:doh: if object too small and too thin have no influence on wave then how can chaff work? they are effectively thinner than the human hair and still work in x-band.
Image
and let me guess, you have never heard of Rayleigh scattering too?
and how small for you to consider too small?. Are you aware that pass the Mie region, increase the wavelength will reduce the RCS?
Image
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Your comment is only true if we consider atom size but that is very different thing because atoms size is literally 2000-3500 times smaller than the wavelength of visible light and the quantum realm has unique interraction . The interaction is very different from how low frequency radar interact with stealth aircraft.

hocum wrote:Complex countermeasure, such as another band seekers/trackers, different angles of emitting WITH information exchange, radar modes such accumulative informations from special sectors of space instead of regular round obeserving makes every stealth full visible. No any tricks, or "incorrect representaions"... :wink:

Air defense with radars operate in different bands has exist since the Vietnam war they aren't complex or recent.
Different angle of emitting and exchange information? refer to my last post, and find a way for your ground radar to effectively communicate when they are 300 km from the other.
Your broken English make it hard to understand what you are trying to say with a radar modes such accumulative informations from special sectors but suppose that you mean illuminate one sector with many pulse until you can see the stealth aircraft, but you must there is only so many radar pulse you can send until you get the range ambiguity problem
unambiguity.PNG



hocum wrote:So, stealth is advantage - but against what? Another planes/fighters? Yep, that's true, exellent measure. But against land/naval multi-echeloning air defence position area??? :shock: :D Are you serious? Think again. 8)

Stealth is always an advantage not only in detection but also in jamming
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Gums wrote:@eloise
A super tutorial about radar and such. I hope there's a lot more about the LO plane design that you will keep quiet.
Gums sends...

I have to thank Garrya for gathering a huge treasure trove of information in his blog, I mostly Ctrl+V from there to save time
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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 00:47

The funny part is when you realize
That the F-35 could possibly take on a S-400 even without stealth. To external cruise missiles
Jamm the radar array.
And head home. The towed decoy for egress.
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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 01:59

News flash, any advanced SAM system bought from a large country and employed by a small country is only effective against another small country, any much larger military can easily overwhelm ANY SAM system. Large countries don’t attack other large countries because the response would be costly, we only attack small countries that cannot attack back. No large modern country is worried about any SAM system, it’s just a choice of how much resources you need to use and what’s the response. There’s a huge difference between an F35 attacking an S400 in Syria and an S400 in Russia and that difference is the response. If Russia decided to attack the US they wouldn’t care about our defense, only our offense. Defense only serves to increase the cost of offense.

Edit: stealth greatly reduces the cost of offense.
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 10:20

eloise wrote:you lack the basic physic knowledge needed to understand the fundamental of radio wave and radar

I have degree master of science in electrotechnic area. Of course it is not the same that radiotechic, but what have you own?

So you again repeat me a simple book theory that I KNOW, and I don't need to read this here english. I can do it my language always.

eloise wrote:if object too small and too thin have no influence on wave then how can chaff work?

Chaff cuts to have legth equal to a half of counter radar wavelength. If it more shorter, its effect declines to zero wery quicly - as initial chaff cloud dissipates. (When optic effect of cloud pass, every peace of chaff becomes inffective.) For modern radars chaff even in this case can only close target neither decoy, it must be between radar and target. So it uses more and more seldom, istead of active jamming.

When I write "no inflience", I talk about wave penetration depth into coverage material. Just about this case. Optic area, mie/Rayleigh scattering is totally out of business.

eloise wrote:Air defense with radars operate in different bands has exist since the Vietnam war they aren't complex or recent.

Of course. Look this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvgyiFCoG0U
Dani Zolatn on briefing in detail describes and claims that his P-18 radar on L1 "letter frequency" saw Vega31 about 50km range. In another case, they haven't enough time to track and to launch rockets.

eloise wrote:Different angle of emitting and exchange information? refer to my last post, and find a way for your ground radar to effectively communicate when they are 300 km from the other.

Well, my turns to smile. :D All you in yours mind models don't see on position defence area as A COMPLETE SYSTEM, and consider only duel situations - plane vs definite air defence complex, and nothing more.

A way? Radio way, of course. HF and UHF radiostations. Why middle and long rage complex ALWAYS have their own command posts? Why short rage complex batteries ALWAYS have battery command posts? For better looking? For more comfort drinking vodka of chief command officers? :D :D

Even in old generation complexes, such as S-300PT/S-300PS, command post can translate information to upper or lover echelon of defence, and of course for their neighbor complexes through higher level. Look on Baikal-1 (73N6) command post - it can translate orders and target information even to subordinate aviation, radiosurveylance forces and ECM forces. IN AUTOMATIC mode, not by operators voices. In some cases it would be a raw trajectory information instead of complete builded tracks/tracers.

Even S-300PT can do "ring-ring" mode, when 3-4 different neightbor complexes can sends short impulses one-by-one and sends own results to higher command post for complete tracking. In most modern modifications it can recive not only its own impulses, but neithbor complexes' impulse too - if it is the same modification, I mean. It needs to know "letter frequency" of neithbor, and spreading bandwidth code (LPI code).

So, all waves that stealth deflects to sides, can recive another placed same complexes. And usually isn't as far as 300km, it is the same position defence area, threre are 2-3 main complexes, as I wrote previous. Positons of all complexes of course is known, so calculate the point where signal deflects is easy geometry task.

In addition, I read that modern stealth has very uneven radiation patterns, so if radar emits it not from the front, even without such information exchange it may possible to track (to guide rocket on) stealth plane.

eloise wrote:and let me guess, you have never heard of Rayleigh scattering too?

You are wrong. And I recommend you in future to ask istead of to guess, better in real question. Or you are disputing with ghosts in your mind instead of me - as now.

eloise wrote:Your broken English make it hard to understand what you are trying to say with a radar modes such accumulative informations from special sectors but suppose that you mean illuminate one sector with many pulse until you can see the stealth aircraft

You understood me correct enough. So, even my broken english can pass information through language barrier. And of course, we always can to go MY NATIVE language, and to see how broken it would be in yours writing. 8)
Don't forget - I am speacking foreign language, and not about everyday things.

Of course, it does some problems with another sectors - that's why attacks on air defence complexes claims to be from as different directions as possible. Possible somebody can remains unseen some longer.

Jamming is a another big question, and let's discuss it some later. Or our post becomes too large for full understanding.
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 13:34

hocum wrote:
eloise wrote:Air defense with radars operate in different bands has exist since the Vietnam war they aren't complex or recent.

Of course. Look this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvgyiFCoG0U
Dani Zolatn on briefing in detail describes and claims that his P-18 radar on L1 "letter frequency" saw Vega31 about 50km range. In another case, they haven't enough time to track and to launch rockets.


That was actually very good evidence about how well even first generation stealth works against different radar frequencies, including VHF. While P-18 is an old radar, it doesn't really matter here. Later VHF radars have only somewhat improved range performance but have superior ECCM. clutter rejection and resolution/accuracy and target tracking capabilities. However the basic physics is the same in P-18 and any current VHF radar. None of the improvements really matter here as there was no EW used in that F-117 shootdown and those other improvements do not matter much when there is a single target flying at medium altitude.

Sure P-18 possibly saw F-117 at about 50 km away. That radar can detect regular fighter about 200 km away, so it's clear that stealth decreased the detection range significantly even in VHF frequency in almost ideal conditions (for the radar). Of course F-117 didn't have any RWR, ECM, ESM, chaff, towed decoy or weapons to do anything about the radar. Basically F-117 was always flying almost totally blind relying only on their stealth and preplanned routes around enemy radars. F-35 is totally different as it has infinitely better SA and has multiple ways of dealing with enemy radars and other threat systems.
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 13:43

tank-top wrote:News flash, any advanced SAM system bought from a large country and employed by a small country is only effective against another small country, any much larger military can easily overwhelm ANY SAM system. Large countries don’t attack other large countries because the response would be costly, we only attack small countries that cannot attack back. No large modern country is worried about any SAM system, it’s just a choice of how much resources you need to use and what’s the response. There’s a huge difference between an F35 attacking an S400 in Syria and an S400 in Russia and that difference is the response. If Russia decided to attack the US they wouldn’t care about our defense, only our offense. Defense only serves to increase the cost of offense.

Edit: stealth greatly reduces the cost of offense.


So are India and China considered small countries?
Didn't they just gave a skirmish?
What about the U.S. and China?
Ohhh what about Iraq? Was Saddams Iraq a small country that couldn't defend?
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 14:05

tank-top wrote:Don’t forget about General Farzad Ismaili.

I found this to be the most telling thing of all for the topic of this thread.
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 16:44

jessmo112 wrote:
tank-top wrote:News flash, any advanced SAM system bought from a large country and employed by a small country is only effective against another small country, any much larger military can easily overwhelm ANY SAM system. Large countries don’t attack other large countries because the response would be costly, we only attack small countries that cannot attack back. No large modern country is worried about any SAM system, it’s just a choice of how much resources you need to use and what’s the response. There’s a huge difference between an F35 attacking an S400 in Syria and an S400 in Russia and that difference is the response. If Russia decided to attack the US they wouldn’t care about our defense, only our offense. Defense only serves to increase the cost of offense.

Edit: stealth greatly reduces the cost of offense.


So are India and China considered small countries?
Didn't they just gave a skirmish?
What about the U.S. and China?
Ohhh what about Iraq? Was Saddams Iraq a small country that couldn't defend?



It looks like you understand what I wrote perfectly, thanks.

India China skirmish, looks like neither side wants to use real weapons, wonder why?

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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 19:03

hocum wrote:What about my knowleges.... I have degree master of science in electrotechnic area. Of course it is not the same that radiotechic, but what have you own?
So you again repeat me a simple book theory that I KNOW, and I don't need to read this here english. I can do it my language always.

It is clear from the way you parroting these stereotype of stealth and low frequency that you don't have a master of science degree in electrical engineering. And you don't know about the theories I mentioned. There is no point to pretend.

hocum wrote:Chaff cuts to have legth equal to a half of counter radar wavelength. If it more shorter, its effect declines to zero wery quicly - as initial chaff cloud dissipates. (When optic effect of cloud pass, every peace of chaff becomes inffective.)

Chaff are cut to half to take advantage of resonance effect in Mie region. When chaff length are much smaller than the radar wavelength it go to Rayleigh region and RCS reduce exponentially
1.PNG


hocum wrote:When I write "no inflience", I talk about wave penetration depth into coverage material. Just about this case. Optic area, mie/Rayleigh scattering is totally out of business.

That is total nonsense
Firstly, the interaction between object and radar wave MUST follow at least one of the three regions: Optical region, Resonance region or Rayleigh region. Complex object can follow the rule of more than one region at once. But you can't make it not follow the rule of any region.
Secondly, RAM doesn't have to be half the radar wavelength to have radar absorbing effect. Ferrite RAM can have considerable absorbing capability with 0.001 wavelength thickness
Ram1.PNG

Ram 2.PNG
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 19:23

hocum wrote:Of course. Look this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvgyiFCoG0U
Dani Zolatn on briefing in detail describes and claims that his P-18 radar on L1 "letter frequency" saw Vega31 about 50km range. In another case, they haven't enough time to track and to launch rockets.

I think you are the one who should have a closer look at the video.Firstly, I will give you some time stamps:
_At 8:31 Zoltan Danny explained that he used the lowest frequency setting L-1 at 140 Mhz to see F-117 clearly on radar screen
_ 18:32-19:09 Zoltan Danny explained that he received some intel (outsider information) from headquarters, on when to turn on his radar, as he had no target on his radar screen.
_ 19:43-20:02 Zoltan Danny said he detected several targets at distance 30 km and some are closer, but they are not inside engagement range.
_ At 20:18, he talked about the exact time when the P-18 acquire a clear track of one F-117 at azimuth 195 (as recorded by Djordje Anicic, this happened at 23 km away).
_ F-117 was crusing at 6 km and ascend to 8 km when he later got hit

And this is the normal P-18 detection range:
Image

So what do we have here?: P-18, a VHF radar with the lowest frequency setting can detect F-117 from distance 23-30 km. While the same radar will detect a conventional aircraft from 110-250 km. So stealth aircraft still reduce detection range of low frequency radar by 5-8 times compared to normal aircraft And we are talking about F-117, the first generation of stealth aircraft with so blended curve design, no trailing and leading edge treatment, no ECM system, no RWR.

hocum wrote:Well, my turns to smile. :D All you in yours mind models don't see on position defence area as A COMPLETE SYSTEM, and consider only duel situations - plane vs definite air defence complex, and nothing more.

A way? Radio way, of course. HF and UHF radiostations. Why middle and long rage complex ALWAYS have their own command posts? Why short rage complex batteries ALWAYS have battery command posts? For better looking? For more comfort drinking vodka of chief command officers? :D :D

Even in old generation complexes, such as S-300PT/S-300PS, command post can translate information to upper or lover echelon of defence, and of course for their neighbor complexes through higher level. Look on Baikal-1 (73N6) command post - it can translate orders and target information even to subordinate aviation, radiosurveylance forces and ECM forces. IN AUTOMATIC mode, not by operators voices. In some cases it would be a raw trajectory information instead of complete builded tracks/tracers.

Even S-300PT can do "ring-ring" mode, when 3-4 different neightbor complexes can sends short impulses one-by-one and sends own results to higher command post for complete tracking. In most modern modifications it can recive not only its own impulses, but neithbor complexes' impulse too - if it is the same modification, I mean. It needs to know "letter frequency" of neithbor, and spreading bandwidth code (LPI code).

So, all waves that stealth deflects to sides, can recive another placed same complexes. And usually isn't as far as 300km, it is the same position defence area, threre are 2-3 main complexes, as I wrote previous. Positons of all complexes of course is known, so calculate the point where signal deflects is easy geometry task.

In addition, I read that modern stealth has very uneven radiation patterns, so if radar emits it not from the front, even without such information exchange it may possible to track (to guide rocket on) stealth plane.

You don't understand my question. Everybody know command post are used to gather and share information. But firstly, they are limited by radar horizon (line of sight). The antenna height is 5-6 m tall so radar horizon is 20 km approximately. Secondly, like I said before, to stay out of the frontal stealth cone of stealth aircraft and stay safe from AARGM-ER, your radar need to be about 300 km from each others. That a big number of command post that you will need to link the two radar. On the contrary, if all your radars are closer to each others, then they will all be within the VLO cone of stealth aircraft.
Image



hocum wrote:You are wrong. And I recommend you in future to ask istead of to guess, better in real question. Or you are disputing with ghosts in your mind instead of me - as now.

Had you know about Rayleigh scattering, you wouldn't say silly thing like small object have no influence on radio wave and RAM must have half wavelength thickness

hocum wrote:You understood me correct enough. So, even my broken english can pass information through language barrier. And of course, we always can to go MY NATIVE language, and to see how broken it would be in yours writing. 8)
Don't forget - I am speacking foreign language, and not about everyday things.

Firstly, I didn't go to your natives forum and demand that you use English there. You go to an English speaking forum, so you should make your English comprehensible. For your information, English isn't my native language and I don't have perfect English. But I try to minimize the number of spelling and grammar mistakes, you didn't seem to do that with your post.
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Unread post30 Oct 2020, 22:26

F-117 at 16 km was tracked by SNR-125.

On paper and by USAF expirence from Iraq, SNR-125 is almost useless against stealth and if we look paper spec it is:
https://www.litaktak.com/product/sam-sy ... echora-ML/
tracking of fighter target: 30km (ideal sitaution)

But when you have excellent crew to operate obsolete system can win battle with latest tech.

Reason why F-117 was so dominant in Iraq was SAM crews not good as ours but also surprise effect, it was new thing and probable most crews though something is wrong with radar or it is jamming. If you read or listen what our guys said, even though target signature was big it is faint and hard for tracking and S-125 use manual tracking which only complicate things.
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