S-400 and F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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Gums

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 03:36

Salute!

Wrightwing prolly has it correct, if the ACMI stuff didn't increase the RCS a lot.

Although things have progressed, it's possible that exercise opponents ( normally friendlies) might be able to get a "hit" from the IFF ( I tink it was Mode IV). Back in the day, the Eagles had a symbol around the HUD TD box to let them know friend or foe. This was in addition to the NCTR stuff using the radar return.

Maybe a new source here could verify if that IFF procedure is still used.

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jessmo112

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 05:39

Without details how does acme work?
When red or blue does do they send out a signal?
And who keeps score up there?
Is it just being in a piper too long gets you dead?
There has to be some ref.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:00

This might help explain. No road runner though.

https://www.prescient.com.sg/?page_id=71
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 09:48

ricnunes wrote:
boogieman wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:With what did he 'watch the F-22s supercruise in'?

Good question. I am paraphrasing of course so I could be misquoting slightly. The emphasis was on the effect the Raptors had more than how they did it. Then again with the MESA on E7 watching, I suppose luneberg lenses could have been in play.


Perhaps thru Data-link instead?
(This way a friendly AWACS radar wouldn't need to actually detect the F-22s in order to keep tracking them)

Afterall luneberg lenses would also make the F-22s visible (or more visible) to "opposing forces".


Definitely data-link is the best source for information about where friendly aircraft are, including F-22. They know exactly where they are, what their speed is, what their heading is etc. They then transmit that data constantly to C2 assets which can then track every friendly aircraft with very high precision and with information about what their vehicle status is and what weaponry they still have, what their fuel status is etc.

Of course like Gums said, each aircraft has IFF system which would respond to suitable interrogation signal with info about aircraft identification code, altitude and position. So it gives most crucial information, but a lot less than data-linked infomation. But of course they compliment each other well and I'm sure AEW aircraft will use both as sources of information.

Of course neither of these works with enemy aircraft and tracking F-22s will likely be a nice challenge to even the most advanced AEW aircraft like E-7. Naturally Luneburg lens would help a lot as that can make the F-22 have 4th gen fighter RCS. Not very realistic training against it though.

During training ACMI systems are definitely used but they are basically data-link systems with focus on training environments and needs. In F-22 and F-35 these systems are internal and they don't use pods AFAIK. Here is some info about them: https://www.leonardodrs.com/air-combat- ... ubsystems/

Leonardo DRS, as principal subcontractor to team mate Cubic Global Defense, is responsible for the development, performance, and sustainment of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) P5 Internal subsystem (JSF P5 IS). The JSF P5 CTS IS supports JSF-to-JSF training operations in addition to JSF-to-Legacy P5 CTS dissimilar air combat training. The subsystem is composed of a P5 internal instrumentation package and a P5 planning software application within the JSF Off-board Mission Support (OMS) system.

The JSF P5 IS instrumentation package is housed within the JSF and is connected to the JSF fiber channel interface receiving aircraft-provided weapon and position data to support real-time weapon simulations and real-time kill notification (RTKN). The JSF P5 IS outputs data for recording on the JSF pilot memory device (PMD) to support post mission debriefing and receives pre-mission data files from the PMD. The JSF P5 instrumentation package also incorporates a type one encrypted data link operating in the L and S RF bands.

Legacy P5 CTS pods are interoperable with the JSF P5 IS and legacy P5 ranges have the ability to decrypt the JSF P5 IS data link messages providing a real-time ground monitoring capability.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 11:00

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 11:02

I am guessing that an F-22’s IFF transponder broadcasts non-directionally an RF signal rather than using a directional antenna. Wouldn’t this potentially compromise F-22 low observability?

As to data links the F-22 has or had no way of communicating with non F-22s other than voice communications. No Link 16 and only IDFL. Unless some developmental gateway was being used data links weren’t being used to keep track of F-22s.

https://www.airforcemag.com/f-22s-agile ... next-year/
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 14:47

Salute!

Tuff luck, Spaz!! I "out searched ya"!!!

The ACMI equivalent is internal!!

Google F-35 acmi and find many articles. First hit I got was right here and from 2007Just a quote or two:

San Diego based Cubic Corp. have won a $50.3 million contract from Lockheed Martin to design and integrate a new embedded version of its latest air combat training system (ACMI) for the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).


Leonardo DRS and Cubic Corporation will work together to delivery more than 500 P5 CTS Internal Subsystems for the latest-generation Air Combat Training System (ACTS) for the F-35 Lightning II.


http://www.f-16.net/f-35-news-article2557.html

https://www.leonardodrs.com/news/press- ... -training/

Guess that clears up things.

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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 15:40

aussiebloke wrote:I am guessing that an F-22’s IFF transponder broadcasts non-directionally an RF signal rather than using a directional antenna. Wouldn’t this potentially compromise F-22 low observability?


As far as I know IFF's don't constantly broadcast (either directionally or non-directionally). An IFF only broadcasts when it's interrogated on the correct frequency and transmission/code and IFF interrogators are directional (often slaved to where the radar/antenna is pointing at).

If you're using non-encrypted military IFF mode 1 and 2 or the military/civilian Mode 3/A then I would say that there's a good chance of the enemy can or could detect the opposing aircraft resorting to those IFF modes. For example, Mode 3/A which is used by any ATC (Air Traffic Controller) worldwide is able to identify any aircraft (military or civilian, doesn't matter) which has its IFF mode 3/A turned on.
That's why I remember to have read somewhere that a pilot when facing the enemy or entering into enemy territory will always shut down IFF Mode 3/A. It's possible that IFF Mode 1 and 2 are also shut down in these situations but here I'm not 100% sure.

Now the military IFF mode 4 is something entirely different. For starters it's an encrypted IFF mode whose codes are constantly changed (for example and paraphrasing Gums: "The avionics folks would even code the box while we're on the ramp") so the IFF Mode 4 of a certain aircraft will only be 'triggered' (start to broadcast) if its interrogated on the correct code.
Then there's also IFF mode 5 which if I'm not mistaken is basically a more modern and advanced version of Mode 4.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 16:23

ricnunes wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:I am guessing that an F-22’s IFF transponder broadcasts non-directionally an RF signal rather than using a directional antenna. Wouldn’t this potentially compromise F-22 low observability?


Now the military IFF mode 4 is something entirely different. For starters it's an encrypted IFF mode whose codes are constantly changed (for example and paraphrasing Gums: "The avionics folks would even code the box while we're on the ramp") so the IFF Mode 4 of a certain aircraft will only be 'triggered' (start to broadcast) if its interrogated on the correct code.


I am not suggesting the encrypted IFF codes could be broken. Instead I am asking if the transponder signals themselves can be detected and geolocated. Theoretically they can if this company’s marketing material is to be believed:
https://www.crfs.com/applicationstory/p ... -using-rf/
What kinds of RF transmissions can be used for tracking?

RFeye can detect all the signal types commonly associated with aircraft, including:

IFF
ADS-B
Link16
TACAN/DME
Radar
ATC channels
Geolocation can be performed using any or all of these detected signal types.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 17:12

Do most of the datalinks used for aircrafts operate at HF and VHF? I do love the option of MADL for being around 20-30 ghz because I believe that most RWRs of adversary aircrafts are up to 16 or 18ghz if I remember correctly at the sources I was looking at which makes the transmission difficult to suppress.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 17:27

Salute!

@ JESSMO....

The ACMI pods implemented in the 70's were game changers. When the Viper video cam came along in 1980, they both made realistic air combat training believeable.

No more who could talk the best and use their hands. The battle could be viewed and recorded in real time by the ground stations, then used for debriefs. For awhile in early 80's, nobody had the VCR like we had in the Viper. So put the two together and wow! They used to kid us at Red Flag and other events, asking to see our "home movies" after a mission.

The pod looked like a missile without fins, and was loaded on a basic missile rail. Each pod in an exercise was coded for each player. So it broadcast a myriad of data about the aircraft and its systems - attitude, speed, altitude, position, and maybe in the Viper, weapon selected, system modes(?), etc. because we had the mux bus at each station that could provide additional stuff than the old jets could. During real time and debrief, you could select the "view" of specific players. So a shootdown was easy to confirm, especially if using guns or 'winder and HUD recorder. If I recall, during AIMVAL-ACEVAL the system would "bong" you and you were outta the fight.

Good to confirm the ACMI equivalent is embedded on the new generation. Just hope all the encryption junk works well or you can turn the damn thing off manually.

Gums sends...
Last edited by Gums on 06 Apr 2020, 21:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 18:47

“If I recall, during AIMVAL-ACEVAL the system would "bong" you and you were outta the fight.“

...and put a 3d coffin symbol around your aircraft, so the monitor on range console watching could make a call to the effect — ‘that’s a valid shot...maverick you’re dead’ — sometimes necessary when someone didn’t kill-remove.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 19:30

aussiebloke wrote:I am not suggesting the encrypted IFF codes could be broken. Instead I am asking if the transponder signals themselves can be detected and geolocated. Theoretically they can if this company’s marketing material is to be believed:
https://www.crfs.com/applicationstory/p ... -using-rf/


Yes, IFF transponders can be geolocated. You can see this happening when looking at the screen in front of an ATC.
But in order for an IFF transponder to be geolocated, first it must be transmitting and then you must have the proper equipment to intercept and interpret such transmissions (which for example in the case of IFF Mode 4 are top secret) or resuming you must know what and where to listen.
And like I previously said, IFF transponders will only transmit (and very briefly so, reducing the probability of being intercepted by the enemy) when they are successfully interrogated by a fully compliant/allied equipment which is interrogating with the proper codes (which BTW, are constantly changing in case of Mode 4).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 19:54

The E-7's MESA is a L-band array, it may be able to see the Raptors to an extent. I can't think of any datalink that they could use that they would be transmitting. They don't have Link-16 out yet, unless the USAF has the TALON HATE pods involved. Perhaps BACN nodes? I can't recall if they have IFDL receive capability. Its a neat anecdote in any case.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 22:02

ricnunes wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:I am not suggesting the encrypted IFF codes could be broken. Instead I am asking if the transponder signals themselves can be detected and geolocated. Theoretically they can if this company’s marketing material is to be believed:
https://www.crfs.com/applicationstory/p ... -using-rf/


Yes, IFF transponders can be geolocated. You can see this happening when looking at the screen in front of an ATC.
But in order for an IFF transponder to be geolocated, first it must be transmitting and then you must have the proper equipment to intercept and interpret such transmissions (which for example in the case of IFF Mode 4 are top secret) or resuming you must know what and where to listen.
And like I previously said, IFF transponders will only transmit (and very briefly so, reducing the probability of being intercepted by the enemy) when they are successfully interrogated by a fully compliant/allied equipment which is interrogating with the proper codes (which BTW, are constantly changing in case of Mode 4).


We seem to be talking at cross-puposes. I am asking if opposing forces can geolocate an IFF signal coming from an F-22's transponder not if friendly ATC can geolocate it.

So a scenario is that a friendly AWACS or ground based radar interrogates the F-22's transponder. The transponder sends out the appropriate encrypted response as intended. Can that response be detected by opposing forces and, without being decrypted, the signal used to geolocate the F-22? Does IFF potentially compromise F-22 (and F-35 for that matter) stealth?
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