S-400 and F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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hocum

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Unread post21 Nov 2020, 16:52

eloise wrote:Very short range SAM such as Pansir-S1 can fire on the move but their range is so short that they aren't main threat.

That is incorrect. Especially Pantsir-S1 can't shoot on moving - wheeled vehicle. ;) Thor since M2 can. New Derivatsia (2S38) can. Tunguska can. Osa-AKM can't by the same reason - wheels.
Even secondary threats can hit a rocket into plane's bottom easily - from forward ambush. Forcing Georgia to peace operation showed it clearly.

eloise wrote:You said object too small have no interaction with radar wave, I showed you they do, and the phenomenom is Rayleigh scattering

I think I'm starting to understand... Do you know how "interference coverages", for example Jauman absorber/Salisbury Screen, works? I told about such coverages, with its strictly 1/2 (1/4) emitting wavelenght dependance. Why did you start nonsense about rayleigh scattering?

eloise wrote:What the hell you are trying to describe with "not an object without form and size" ????

Well, look here - http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/220/han ... itions.pdf
Do you see any sizes and forms? Can you answer - is it optic, resonance or rayleigh? ;)
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milosh

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Unread post22 Nov 2020, 19:40

eloise wrote:Thirdly, they don't overwhelmed air defense with planes, they overwhelm air defense with decoys such as SPEAR-EW, MALD-J/N, a single F-35 can carry about 24 SPEAR-EW, that a huge number of random targets.
Finally, the biggest advantage of air force is force concentration. Let say you have 100 locations to protect and X number of SAM batteries, you need to divide the X number of SAM batteries/number of location. For air force in attack, you don't need to do that. You can have your whole force attack each location one by one.


Do decoys work in all bands? I mean can you fool Nebo-M or similar radars by them?
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wrightwing

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Unread post22 Nov 2020, 22:43

milosh wrote:
eloise wrote:Thirdly, they don't overwhelmed air defense with planes, they overwhelm air defense with decoys such as SPEAR-EW, MALD-J/N, a single F-35 can carry about 24 SPEAR-EW, that a huge number of random targets.
Finally, the biggest advantage of air force is force concentration. Let say you have 100 locations to protect and X number of SAM batteries, you need to divide the X number of SAM batteries/number of location. For air force in attack, you don't need to do that. You can have your whole force attack each location one by one.


Do decoys work in all bands? I mean can you fool Nebo-M or similar radars by them?


You wouldn't use decoys for UHF/VHF radars. Those are for fire control radars.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post23 Nov 2020, 12:42

hocum wrote:
eloise wrote:Very short range SAM such as Pansir-S1 can fire on the move but their range is so short that they aren't main threat.

That is incorrect. Especially Pantsir-S1 can't shoot on moving - wheeled vehicle. ;) Thor since M2 can. New Derivatsia (2S38) can. Tunguska can. Osa-AKM can't by the same reason - wheels.
Even secondary threats can hit a rocket into plane's bottom easily - from forward ambush. Forcing Georgia to peace operation showed it clearly.


Totally incorrect. Wheels or tracks doesn't mean much for firing on the move capability. It's about vehicle suspension and sensor/weapons stabilization which can be done with either wheeled or tracked vehicle. Pantsir-S1 can fire on the move (both guns and missiles). See at 1:10



hocum wrote:
eloise wrote:You said object too small have no interaction with radar wave, I showed you they do, and the phenomenom is Rayleigh scattering

I think I'm starting to understand... Do you know how "interference coverages", for example Jauman absorber/Salisbury Screen, works? I told about such coverages, with its strictly 1/2 (1/4) emitting wavelenght dependance. Why did you start nonsense about rayleigh scattering?


I definitely don't understand what you are trying to say. Anyway, small objects definitely interact with radar waves and that's what is used in weather radars for example. They are mostly S-band or C-band systems (5-10 cm wavelength) and are used to detect droplets and ice particles.

I don't know what Jaumann absorber or Salisbury screen have to do with anything. They are not used in any aircraft or munition as they are not suitable for them. They are way too bulky and would be really difficult to apply and maintain.
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milosh

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Unread post23 Nov 2020, 17:47

wrightwing wrote:
milosh wrote:
eloise wrote:Thirdly, they don't overwhelmed air defense with planes, they overwhelm air defense with decoys such as SPEAR-EW, MALD-J/N, a single F-35 can carry about 24 SPEAR-EW, that a huge number of random targets.
Finally, the biggest advantage of air force is force concentration. Let say you have 100 locations to protect and X number of SAM batteries, you need to divide the X number of SAM batteries/number of location. For air force in attack, you don't need to do that. You can have your whole force attack each location one by one.


Do decoys work in all bands? I mean can you fool Nebo-M or similar radars by them?


You wouldn't use decoys for UHF/VHF radars. Those are for fire control radars.


But modern UHF/VHF radars are networked so they share data with FCS radars, this is why I ask can you fool them with small flying decoys?
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charlielima223

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Unread post24 Nov 2020, 00:40

milosh wrote:
But modern UHF/VHF radars are networked so they share data with FCS radars, this is why I ask can you fool them with small flying decoys?


I would take a guess and would say that it depends at what frequency the decoys are transmitting at and at what the output is.
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marauder2048

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Unread post24 Nov 2020, 02:24

hocum wrote:You are totally wrong. Therritorial air defence complexes like S-400/S-350 has 5 minuites official requirement for full packing and to start moving. And most of this time needs to dig out its high voltage grounding. If don't do this - it can lower antennas/rockets and start to move less than 1 minute.


For reference, AN/TPQ-53, a comparatively small firefinder AESA has an required displacement time (in daylight)
of 2 minutes. In practice, crews attained median daylight displacement times of 9 minutes and nighttime
displacement times of 12 minutes. It has the same grounding equipment teardown bottleneck as the larger arrays.

So you are really looking at something along the lines of 15 minutes which is well within the dwell
times for even a successful ATACMS attack given typical ToF and deconfliction time.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post24 Nov 2020, 08:07

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:
But modern UHF/VHF radars are networked so they share data with FCS radars, this is why I ask can you fool them with small flying decoys?


I would take a guess and would say that it depends at what frequency the decoys are transmitting at and at what the output is.


There are basically two types of flying decoys. One is pure decoy, which mimics aircraft or cruise missiles mostly passively. Basically they carry radar reflectors which give similar radar signature to whatever they are mimicking. Example is original MALD (A and B models).

Other has EW equipment to jam and disrupt enemy radars so that they won't be able to detect and track aircraft or say cruise missiles that are protected by those decoy missiles. MALD-J is an example of this.

First one might have problem mimicking an aircraft with large RCS as they might not be able to carry large enough reflectors to mimick the radar signature in low frequencies. However they would likely look like cruise missiles or LO aircraft even in VHF radar screen. Second one would also have limitations on how much power they could put on the jammed radar in low frequencies. They would have quite low gain jammer antenna due to space limitations in decoys. Power would also be low compared to massive power in huge low frequency radars. There would also need to be specialized versions just for low frequency radars as such decoy missiles could not be very wideband. I think this is the main reason for jamming just the fire control radars and disrupting the kill chain.
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