Egypt - NO F-35 YES Su-35

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Corsair1963

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 02:18

US: Egypt could face sanctions if it purchases Russian fighter jets



CAIRO — A senior U.S. official warned Egypt on Monday that if it purchases Russian fighter jets it risks American sanctions.


R. Clarke Cooper, the State Department’s assistant secretary in the Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, made the comment to journalists on the sidelines of the biennial Dubai Airshow.


Cooper said the planned purchase of Russian jets puts Egypt “at risk of sanctions and it puts them at risk of loss of future acquisition."


Egypt has concluded a deal to buy Russian Su-35s jets, according to military officials in Cairo, which it says are to help combat a years long Islamist insurgency in the Sinai Peninsula.


The Egyptian military, which is the largest in the Arab world, went to Russia after the U.S. did not answer requests over a year ago to acquire roughly two dozen F-35 fighter jets, according to one Egyptian military official. The Russian deal was meant to diversify Egypt’s weapon suppliers, because in past years U.S. military assistance was stopped due to concerns over human rights violations, said another official.


Both officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the matter.


Egypt, one of the largest recipients of U.S. military aid outside of NATO, has been turning toward Russia in recent years for military backing. In 2017, Egypt agreed to allow Russian military planes use of its airbases. This month, the two counties' air forces conducted joint exercises.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... hter-jets/
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krieger22

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 09:06

Seems like a better fit for Modern Military Aircraft than here.

Besides, the Egyptians aren't going to be trusted enough for F-35 in my lifetime.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 11:04

krieger22 wrote:Seems like a better fit for Modern Military Aircraft than here.

Besides, the Egyptians aren't going to be trusted enough for F-35 in my lifetime.



The Su-35 are useless against Israeli F-35's. So, why risk billions in Military Aid and likely US Sanctions..... :?
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 11:09

Corsair1963 wrote:
The Su-35 are useless against Israeli F-35's. So, why risk billions in Military Aid and likely US Sanctions..... :?


Tradition my friend, tradition!
We all know that tradition dictates that Arab/Muslim fighter aircraft will always be shot down by the dozens and wiped out by Israeli fighter aircraft. The objective of such purchase is to keep up with the tradition :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 11:18

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
The Su-35 are useless against Israeli F-35's. So, why risk billions in Military Aid and likely US Sanctions..... :?


Tradition my friend, tradition!
We all know that tradition dictates that Arab/Muslim fighter aircraft will always be shot down by the dozens and wiped out by Israeli fighter aircraft. The objective of such purchase is to keep up with the tradition :mrgreen:



Crazy... :shock:
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 18:47

What are Egypt's choices anyways? They can't get F-35 anyways, so they're choosing what they can get.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 21:11

disconnectedradical wrote:What are Egypt's choices anyways? They can't get F-35 anyways, so they're choosing what they can get.


Yes, I agree that the F-35 would always be "off limits" to Egypt (at least in the next decades to come) so when it comes to the F-35 and Egypt this would always be IMO, a moot point.

However there are other choices available to Egypt such as more Rafales (Egypt already operates the type), Typhoon or perhaps even the Super Hornet or F-16 Block 70 (and not to mention the Gri-Pen).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 21:58

ricnunes wrote:However there are other choices available to Egypt such as more Rafales (Egypt already operates the type)

The Rafale is a fantastic multirole plane. What if they want a heavy-class long range/endurance air-superiority machine? What if they plan to strip the electronic guts out of the Flankers and replace them with French electronics?
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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 22:25

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
ricnunes wrote:However there are other choices available to Egypt such as more Rafales (Egypt already operates the type)

The Rafale is a fantastic multirole plane. What if they want a heavy-class long range/endurance air-superiority machine? What if they plan to strip the electronic guts out of the Flankers and replace them with French electronics?


They got Rafale in Mistral deal, price was very lower for Rafales back then. But if they decide to buy Rafales today they will pay similar price and India. It is way too expensive for Egypt.

And Rafale biggest advantage over Su-35 doens't exist if both goes against F-35. Rafale can't use Meteor excellent long range versus stealth target.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 23:38

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The Rafale is a fantastic multirole plane. What if they want a heavy-class long range/endurance air-superiority machine? What if they plan to strip the electronic guts out of the Flankers and replace them with French electronics?


1- Do they (Egypt) have the capability/technical skills to do that?
2- If the answer to 1- is yes then will they be allowed to do that? (due to licencing agreements and such - I doubt that the French would be happy to see a Flanker with all the sensors and electronics of the Rafale or other French equipment)
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 23:53

milosh wrote:They got Rafale in Mistral deal, price was very lower for Rafales back then. But if they decide to buy Rafales today they will pay similar price and India. It is way too expensive for Egypt.


You make an excellent point there.

BTW, what would be a realistic cost per unit for a reasonably well equipped Su-35?

I know that coming up with an absolute and fully accurate value/cost is almost "impossible" but what would be a realistically and close enough (unit cost) value for the Su-35 specially compared with the Rafale cost?


milosh wrote:And Rafale biggest advantage over Su-35 doens't exist if both goes against F-35. Rafale can't use Meteor excellent long range versus stealth target.


I fully agree and granted, another excellent point.

However against other 4th gen fighter aircraft like for example Israeli F-15s and F-16s things could be different thou.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 23:55

ricnunes wrote:1- Do they (Egypt) have the capability/technical skills to do that?
2- If the answer to 1- is yes then will they be allowed to do that? (due to licencing agreements and such - I doubt that the French would be happy to see a Flanker with all the sensors and electronics of the Rafale or other French equipment)

The fitting of French Electronics into Russian aircraft has happened in the past with India or Iraq IIRC.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 00:10

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The fitting of French Electronics into Russian aircraft has happened in the past with India or Iraq IIRC.


Yes, that's true indeed.
However and if I'm not mistaken that happened in the past when the French didn't have any problems/issues in exporting their fighter aircraft.
The problem (IMO) is that the French are now having a very hard time exporting their fighter aircraft - the Rafale in this case - which as opposed to previous French fighter aircraft it hasn't been much of an export success.
So and in this case, a Su-35 with French avionics could/should definitely mean no further Rafale purchases and this not only by Egypt but potentially by other countries which otherwise could be potential Rafale costumers as well.
So and for these reasons, I doubt that now or even in the foreseeable future that the French will be so willing to integrate their avionics on other (and competitor) aircraft as they were in the past.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 01:35

ricnunes wrote:
However there are other choices available to Egypt such as more Rafales (Egypt already operates the type), Typhoon or perhaps even the Super Hornet or F-16 Block 70 (and not to mention the Gri-Pen).



Additional Rafales would be a far better choice for Egypt as it is already in service. In addition it wouldn't offend the US either....(at least not publicly)
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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 01:54

ricnunes wrote:However and if I'm not mistaken that happened in the past when the French didn't have any problems/issues in exporting their fighter aircraft.....
So and for these reasons, I doubt that now or even in the foreseeable future that the French will be so willing to integrate their avionics on other (and competitor) aircraft as they were in the past.

I see where you are coming from there. It's a logical standpoint and I can see "yes" and "no" arguments about the logic, but I have no interest in "arguing for arguing's sake" today. You could very well be right.
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