Egypt - NO F-35 YES Su-35

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f4u7_corsair

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 06:03

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
ricnunes wrote:1- Do they (Egypt) have the capability/technical skills to do that?
2- If the answer to 1- is yes then will they be allowed to do that? (due to licencing agreements and such - I doubt that the French would be happy to see a Flanker with all the sensors and electronics of the Rafale or other French equipment)

The fitting of French Electronics into Russian aircraft has happened in the past with India or Iraq IIRC.

It also happened with Russian aircraft in... Russian service. Then-VVS Su-30, 35 (among other) were fitted with some French avionics (HUD, INS for the most visible elements), before sanctions occurred.
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marsavian

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 06:27

ricnunes wrote:
milosh wrote:They got Rafale in Mistral deal, price was very lower for Rafales back then. But if they decide to buy Rafales today they will pay similar price and India. It is way too expensive for Egypt.


You make an excellent point there.

BTW, what would be a realistic cost per unit for a reasonably well equipped Su-35?

I know that coming up with an absolute and fully accurate value/cost is almost "impossible" but what would be a realistically and close enough (unit cost) value for the Su-35 specially compared with the Rafale cost?


https://web.archive.org/web/20151120184 ... nse/837662

The cost of one Su-35 fighter is estimated at $83-85 million, which means that the total value of the [China] contract [for 24] may reach $2 billion.


Rafale can't match this export price.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 06:31

Egypt could just buy additional F-16's.... :wink:
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 12:07

Corsair1963 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
However there are other choices available to Egypt such as more Rafales (Egypt already operates the type), Typhoon or perhaps even the Super Hornet or F-16 Block 70 (and not to mention the Gri-Pen).


Additional Rafales would be a far better choice for Egypt as it is already in service. In addition it wouldn't offend the US either....(at least not publicly)


Agreed and that's basically what I had in mind when I first thought about Egypt and Rafales. As you mention "this solution" has the following 2 advantages:
1- Not angering the US (or as you said, at least not publicly)
2- Having some economical savings in terms of fleet sustainment costs since it avoids adding another model/fighter aircraft to the fleet/inventory, this despite the Su-35 being actually cheaper in terms of unit cost.

Corsair1963 wrote:Egypt could just buy additional F-16's.... :wink:


Agreed as well. IMO a good idea for Egypt would be to buy new (extra) F-16 Block 70 while at the same time upgrade the existing F-16s to Block 70 standard.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 12:09

marsavian wrote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151120184 ... nse/837662

The cost of one Su-35 fighter is estimated at $83-85 million, which means that the total value of the [China] contract [for 24] may reach $2 billion.


Rafale can't match this export price.


Thanks marsavian :thumb:

Yes, the Su-35 seems definitely to be quite cheaper than the Rafale (when it comes to cost per unit).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 12:14

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I see where you are coming from there. It's a logical standpoint and I can see "yes" and "no" arguments about the logic, but I have no interest in "arguing for arguing's sake" today. You could very well be right.


Of course there's also the possibility that I could be wrong as well since what I posted (which is only a personal opinion) is based on current "world politics/economics" and if there's something which is quite fluid and volatile (i.e. changes a lot and thus being extremely dynamic) is precisely the world's "politics/economics".
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 14:42

If the Egyptians are shopping for a high end, heavy air superiority machine (or true multi-role platform) why not sell them the advanced F-15?

Hell, we're selling them to Quatar and Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure what life is like in Quatar, but Saudia Arabia isn't exactly a pillar of human rights, so not supplying them to Egypt on those grounds would be moot. Doing so would also keep Boeing busy, which I suspect was the only reason for the F-15EX budget request. Everybody wins... Boeing keeps the line open and we get to buy more F-35's, not Super Eagle's...
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milosh

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 18:59

mixelflick wrote:If the Egyptians are shopping for a high end, heavy air superiority machine (or true multi-role platform) why not sell them the advanced F-15?

Hell, we're selling them to Quatar and Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure what life is like in Quatar, but Saudia Arabia isn't exactly a pillar of human rights, so not supplying them to Egypt on those grounds would be moot. Doing so would also keep Boeing busy, which I suspect was the only reason for the F-15EX budget request. Everybody wins... Boeing keeps the line open and we get to buy more F-35's, not Super Eagle's...


1.Israel have F-15 and know lot about it.

2.Congress didn't allow sale of AIM-120 for Egypt's F-16.

3.F-15EX would cost lot more then Su-35 and still it wouldn't have any real advantage over Su-35 against F-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Nov 2019, 01:55

mixelflick wrote:If the Egyptians are shopping for a high end, heavy air superiority machine (or true multi-role platform) why not sell them the advanced F-15?

Hell, we're selling them to Quatar and Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure what life is like in Quatar, but Saudia Arabia isn't exactly a pillar of human rights, so not supplying them to Egypt on those grounds would be moot. Doing so would also keep Boeing busy, which I suspect was the only reason for the F-15EX budget request. Everybody wins... Boeing keeps the line open and we get to buy more F-35's, not Super Eagle's...



Who the US should have sold the F-15EX to was Taiwan! While, the loss of the F-16's would be made up with additional F-35's for the US Military. Both built by Lockheed Martin.


i.e. WIN-WIN
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marsavian

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Unread post22 Nov 2019, 18:21

mixelflick wrote:If the Egyptians are shopping for a high end, heavy air superiority machine (or true multi-role platform) why not sell them the advanced F-15?

Hell, we're selling them to Quatar and Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure what life is like in Quatar, but Saudia Arabia isn't exactly a pillar of human rights, so not supplying them to Egypt on those grounds would be moot. Doing so would also keep Boeing busy, which I suspect was the only reason for the F-15EX budget request. Everybody wins... Boeing keeps the line open and we get to buy more F-35's, not Super Eagle's...


Egypt has been denied the F-15 continuously probably on radar/range/Israel proximity/political instability reasons

viewtopic.php?p=416704#p416704
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swiss

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Unread post23 Nov 2019, 23:52

BTW the current price for the 24 Su-35 is 2.5 Billion.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/ ... bln-a65271

Russia and China signed a $2.5 billion deal on the delivery of 24 Sukhoi Su-35s in 2015, making it the first foreign buyer of the fourth-generation multirole air superiority fighter.
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marsavian

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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 00:27

Probably ruble devaluation since 2015 and that price includes ground equipment and reserve engines.

https://tass.com/defense/1053967
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 05:10

Don't forget the future annual engine swap costs ;)
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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 08:11

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5E844C75

So in there the Su-35S Pesa in narrow mode can detect a F15 at 500 miles. Any chance to throw an anti radiation missile at this goon while in passive mode?
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boilermaker

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Unread post24 Nov 2019, 08:19

marsavian wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If the Egyptians are shopping for a high end, heavy air superiority machine (or true multi-role platform) why not sell them the advanced F-15?

Hell, we're selling them to Quatar and Saudi Arabia. I'm not sure what life is like in Quatar, but Saudia Arabia isn't exactly a pillar of human rights, so not supplying them to Egypt on those grounds would be moot. Doing so would also keep Boeing busy, which I suspect was the only reason for the F-15EX budget request. Everybody wins... Boeing keeps the line open and we get to buy more F-35's, not Super Eagle's...


Egypt has been denied the F-15 continuously probably on radar/range/Israel proximity/political instability reasons

viewtopic.php?p=416704#p416704

I think Qatar or the Sauds bought Egypt the French Mistral mini carrier. Maybe if we had talked them into helping Egypt get US equipment...
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