Russian Air Defense Systems unable to detect F-35!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 13:39

f-16.nutter wrote:An F-16 has receivers as well as but that did not stop them from getting tracked by S-400s? I believe they have passive sensors as well its not like the F-35 is flying in blind where enemy aircraft can engage it and get lucky.


The F-16 "receivers" can't even compare to those of the F-35!
For instance in the F-16 the "receivers" are RWR which do NOT geolocate emitting radars, they only tell the pilot the general direction (with a considerable error in terms of Azimuth) from where the radar or radars are emitting and they cannot for sure by used to give a range to the target/radar.
Also and usually, RWRs can't tell for sure if a certain emitting radar is already detecting the aircraft or not (not being able to geolocate radars and give precise azimuth measuring are two of the reasons).
As opposed the F-35 "receivers" consists in something much more advanced than a RWR, they are ESM. The F-35 ESM can geolocate emitting radars with such a precision that the target/radar track generated by the ESM can be used to cue other weapons such as for example a GPS guided SDB, this among many other kind of weapons.

The closest thing that the F-16 can have regarding the F-35 capabilities in this regard is if it carries an AN/ASQ-213 HTS (HARM targeting system) Pod but compared to the F-35 ESM, the HTS:
1- Can NOT cover a 360º around the aircraft.
2- While technically the HTS can "geolocate" emitting radars in the front of the F-16, the tracks generated by the HTS cannot (if I'm not mistaken) be used to directly cue other weapons such as GPS guided weapons.
3- The tracks generated by the HTS cannot be fused with the information coming from other sensors such as Radar or EO pod.
4- Resuming and in terms of weapon cueing, the HTS can only be used to directly cue the HARM while the F-35 ESM can be used to directly cue all sorts of weaponry and sensors.
And so on...


f-16.nutter wrote:Nor is there a way of telling how good the receivers on the F-35 are to distinguish between decoy emitters and radar sources.


Flash news to you: It can! And do you know why?
Because all the data produced by the F-35 sensors is FUSED automatically. And what does this mean? It means that when a radar is detected by the F-35 ESM, the F-35 radar, EOTS and DAS will also be cued to this same radar/target/track which means that a full imagery/analysis of the radar/target is performed and compared to extensive databases which will AUTOMATICALLY determine if the radar is a "real deal" or a "decoy" or something else.
Even if the "target/decoy/whatever" isn't for some odd reason within the database, the pilot will always be able to look at a very sharp, clear and precise imagery of the target (using SAR and/or EO imagery) and this outside the enemy's detection range and determine by himself or herself what target is that.
Something that the F-16 - or any other aircraft for that matter - is "light years" away and behind the F-35!
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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botsing

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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 14:01

ricnunes wrote:Flash news to you: It can! And do you know why?
Because all the data produced by the F-35 sensors is FUSED automatically. And what does this mean? It means that when a radar is detected by the F-35 ESM, the F-35 radar, EOTS and DAS will also be cued to this same radar/target/track which means that a full imagery/analysis of the radar/target is performed and compared to extensive databases which will AUTOMATICALLY determine if the radar is a "real deal" or a "decoy" or something else.
Even if the "target/decoy/whatever" isn't for some odd reason within the database, the pilot will always be able to look at a very sharp, clear and precise imagery of the target (using SAR and/or EO imagery) and this outside the enemy's detection range and determine by himself or herself what target is that.
Something that the F-16 - or any other aircraft for that matter - is "light years" away and behind the F-35!

One of the "issues" with the F-35 was that it ignored fake radars during training exercises:
“A lot of the simulated threat surface-to-air emitters that we have are basically a little radar dish on a stick that’s attached to a computer,” which tells the radar what signals to emit to replicate a threat, Gunn said. “Well, the F-35 sees that and says, ‘nope, that’s not the threat.’ So it ignores it.

https://breakingdefense.com/2016/11/f-2 ... ges-awacs/
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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 19:36

botsing wrote:"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands"

Try being less obvious.

Hiding the insult doesn't eliminate it, but thanks for the effort.
Look, being civil is actually very easy: you just have to understand that other people may have different opinions to yours and refrain from insulting them. Should be easy for someone with "Western values".
Also the failure of one system to perform a specific mission does not make the failure of another system to perform its main mission less significant.

It is difficult to find an example that sums up what delusion means better that this.
So to make clear what you seem to be saying:
- the main mission of Russian AD in Syria is not 90% deterrence and ultimately 10% defence of Hmeimim/ Tartous against a limited attack, but to shoot down any potentially ill-intentioned plane threatening Syria, even beyond their action range, despite screwing Russian own interests and literally act as if they were Assad's dogs.
- Protecting truly critical infrastructure like the one hit in KSA is not THE main mission of the AD defending specifically those sites, and losing 50% of the country's oil production is just a minor event.

Look, for you to understand how the world outside your bubble ticks:
1.the events in KSA are a phenomenal embarrassment, nothing short of a turning point in regards of how US (and allies) military power is seen around the world. It does not really matter whether the attack came from Iran or Yemen. The first is portrayed as the root of all evil and an extraordinary threat that would deserve continuous monitoring, the other is a country actually at war with KSA and that has hit them before with those weapons. The unthinkable event of low tech attacks knocking down assets critical to the world's economy that were protected by the best Western HW money can buy has become a reality and that will have implications.

2. Russia has not shot down Israeli planes, neither before nor after the arrival of the F-35 to the IAF. It is not their mission to do that, they do not get anything from provoking a potentially disastrous conflict by shooting US or (nominally friendly) IAF planes over some barracks being bombed in Syria once in a while due to an old conflict that has nothing to do with them.

garrya wrote:The flight path is quite simple and straight forward IMHO, they came from Iranian direction but they strike Hamma and Aleppo which are both very close to Hermeimin airbase and Tartus. The weapons of choice is SDB I so even at maximum range the distance is only 100 km. So if they are delivered by F-16 then these F-16 would be shot down or attacked because the radar range is 500-600 km and S-200/300/400 missiles range are 300-400 km.But Israel fighters dropped these SDB unmolested. Furthermore, radars of Syrian IADS and Russian IADS can rotate 360 degrees so which direction these F-35s came from shouldn't make any differences, we already clear up the assumption that these fighters fly at low altitude because SDB is a glider bomb.

Coalition has bombed as close to the S-400 as Idlib very recently, should Russians have downed them or did they also not see the F-15Es tasked with the mission?
Again, Russia has nothing to win by interfering in such events:
- Syria and Israel have a long history of conflicts and there Russia has nothing to win by taking sides with Syria. They are friends with Israel and have all reasons for wanting things to continue like that.
- Russian forces in Syria are very limited and completely vulnerable to committed attacks from either CENTCOM or IAF.
- Stretching the scope of their involvement or being dragged into conflict by provocations are just self-defeating approaches that Russia is avoiding at all costs.
- The level of military effects of IAF raids is negligible

Either if they were F-15s or F-35s it is perfectly possible that:
- They were not detected or classified as targets due to terrain masking / US IFF codes / EW
- They could have climbed fast to release altitude and make a fast turn back (we would really need to check very accurately the engagement) before the AD could have engaged them. Planes move fast as we know from our discussions.
- Russia may or may not have received a previous warning about the attack, sometimes IAF does it, sometimes they don't. They could have been misled, too.
- Syrian AD may have not been configured against such attack vector, given they vast majority of attacks from Israel are executed near Damascus and that their systems are very scarce. If you want to proof the F-35s can operate with impunity you don't take such a complex flight path but would attack from Lebanon or the Mediterranean, right above Hmeimim if possible
- Syrian have shot down Israel fighters plenty of time before these F-35 strikes were taking place so you can't say Syrian didn't attack these F-35 because they don't want aggression from Israel:

Syria has to my knowledge only demonstrably shot down one plane in last years. It is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that IL can and in fact attacks them with non-stealthy planes due to good planing and execution. There is nothing magical in that, even more considering they don't have an AF to oppose to the Israeli fighters and therefore are permanently on the receiving end. They of course have no problem shooting Israeli planes down with their SAMs but these being static it is relatively easy for Israel to pick the best occasion and attack them. As said, a big counterattack with BMs would be a way to deter from further attacks, but it is not going to happen while Syria is so weak and still embattled with the jihadists and US/SDF/Turkey. It would be their undoing. Russia would only give Syria the means to shoot Israeli planes if they want to send a message to Israel and as said above their preference is to let things settle rather than escalating into a full blown regional war.

On the one hand Israel traditionally understates their combat losses. On the other, Syria has every incentive to claim they have shot down IL planes. If we go by their claims, they also damaged a F-35. We have no way of knowing and cannot fall for every claim.
- Moreover, Russian IADS and Syrian IADS were linked since 25 August 2017 while these Israel F-35 strikes happen from 2018 onward

Yes, it was supposed that Russia was feeding targets to the Syrian AD before but then it was proven not to be the case. S-300 was supposed to deter IL but then it has not been used and is still under uncertain operational conditions. As said above, Russia controls the whole situation and its escalation with very clear political goals, normally only helps Syria when IL goes further than agreed. They have nothing to win and much to lose by altering the regional balance of power or escalating other conflicts.

As to the attack to the radar, of course it can be defeated. As Pantsirs have been also destroyed when put out of station before they should or may have been destroyed just by numbers. Syrian AD is terribly weak.
Can you elaborate on them?

Ok but briefly due to extension of the post already and to avoid unnecessarily provoking other users / going off-topic.

The guy in the video is stating well known facts but in a way (with the clear cooperation of the interviewer) to portray them as a Russian-busting session. For instance:
- The 40N6 is just very recently accepted into service and its numbers are questionable. You just need to go to TASS to read this from an official Russian source, so I don't see why this should be some crucial revelation.
- Onyx needs targeting... well, yes, as any weapon... A well informed observer would know that the stated parameters are an underestimation and that they are ready to be upgraded to 5 M, 800 km range, but ok.
- They have few Iskanders... but I thought Russia was a terribly militaristic country about to conquer Europe.

There are besides a number of cliches that give away a piece as Western propaganda:
- As seen above, the schizophrenic stance between "Russia is a terrible threat" and "Russia is in tatters", as opposed to somehow more rational "Russia comes from a terribly difficult past and is recovering at their pace and within their possibilities". The first approach is clearly destined to 1) create fear and hate against the "enemy" 2) reassure the population that our model is the right one. It is pure pre-war manipulation.
- The Swede states "[Russians]they are brutal..." This is pure slandering and propagandistic without need of further explanation. This is not the way a security professional talks BTW.
- They further talk about their "invasion" of Ukraine. Gives away the 100% Western approach.
- It is always interesting to see how the West uses Sweden as their "neutral" fig leaf. Reality is they are 0% neutral and completely NATO-aligned, participating often in Western propaganda efforts.

Propaganda (or perception management to be more neutral) is one the state's main concerns, if not the biggest of all, it really goes beyond me that someone could think only one side engages on it.
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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 21:11

So now we are feeding an obvious troll?

@southerncross
So if it isnt by a Russian media source then its just western propaganda? Is that the gist of your entire diatribe?
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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 22:51

botsing wrote:One of the "issues" with the F-35 was that it ignored fake radars during training exercises:
“A lot of the simulated threat surface-to-air emitters that we have are basically a little radar dish on a stick that’s attached to a computer,” which tells the radar what signals to emit to replicate a threat, Gunn said. “Well, the F-35 sees that and says, ‘nope, that’s not the threat.’ So it ignores it.

https://breakingdefense.com/2016/11/f-2 ... ges-awacs/


Excellent reminder there, botsing :thumb:

I hope that the "nutter" takes notice of what you posted above.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 22:54

charlielima223 wrote:So now we are feeding an obvious troll?

@southerncross
So if it isnt by a Russian media source then its just western propaganda? Is that the gist of your entire diatribe?

Ok, my last post in this thread.

You just needed to read what I wrote, it was pretty clear. All sides try to show themselves in the best possible light, so all are in the end going to produce some kind of propaganda. And yes that includes Russia too, if that is what you wanted to hear.
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Unread post23 Sep 2019, 23:48

botsing wrote:"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"



I love your signature quote...also congratulations on 836 posts.
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 00:58

RUSSIA Syria IAdS integration has probably to do with Syrians shooting down a Russian plane by mistake
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 01:55

awsome wrote:
botsing wrote:
awsome wrote:So the Russians are unable to strike Israeli F35s with their S-400 systems.

FTFY

Also the failure of one system to perform a specific mission does not make the failure of another system to perform its main mission less significant.


You are missing the point.The Russians are not pro Iran or Syria and they are not anti Israeli. The Russians are pro Russian and they have more to gain by promoting the status quo than they do trying to prove a point. I have long suspected they do not mind the Israelis keeping Iran's influence in Syria in check. The Russians also have more to gain by passively monitoring Israeli F-35 over flights.

On the American side you no longer have a socialist President bringing hope and change to the world at the end of a JDAM. The Americans have decided to allow Iranian strikes to succeed for their own reasons. Maybe they want a pretext for war with Iran... or maybe now as a net exporter of oil they are willing to remember who facilitated the 9/11 terror attacks.


I hear Trump got boosted by frackers interests and Hillary by the traditional Saudi Oil interest (reason Tillerson got fired with prejudice etc). Also Putin is apparently interested in developing fracking.
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 04:39

southerncross wrote: ... Look, for you to understand how the world outside your bubble ticks:
1.the events in KSA are a phenomenal embarrassment, nothing short of a turning point in regards of how US (and allies) military power is seen around the world. It does not really matter whether the attack came from Iran or Yemen. ... The unthinkable event of low tech attacks knocking down assets critical to the world's economy that were protected by the best Western HW money can buy has become a reality and that will have implications. It does not really matter whether the attack came from Iran or Yemen. ...


This is beyond ridiculous. It sure matters to everyone else mate.

Yesterday it was reported that leaders of the Houthies told Saudi Arabia's govt that they were asked by Iran (in advance) to claim responsibility for an upcoming attack (and others), which they did. But said they didn't realize what the scale and nature of the attack would mean for them. So even the Houthies recanted and said Iran was responsible for this attack.

Which means the Quds1 missile revealed in Yemen back in mid June, is not a missile unique to Yemen and manufactured there, if it's coming from Iraqi territory as well in significant numbers (seven Quds1 were used in the attack, two crashed and wreckage recovered). So who's really producing these "Quds1"? Perhaps the answer is in the missile's chosen name? The IRGC Quds Force brigades (estimated to be ~2,000) routinely work with Iranian proxies. It's what they primarily do.

They have apparently, in recent months, fielded this Iranian cruise missile, and now operate it (little-green-men style) from within Iranian proxie groups throughout the ME region. They are either controlling it, and/or also proliferating the missile within the proxies, as Iran has chosen a path of systematic attack which they intend to blame on these groups, remaining one-step removed from Tehran - as they just did with the Houthies.

And apparently the Houthies realized they were about to be smashed and invaded by SA if they didn't clear this up, pronto. So they did.

And when you look at the construction of these Quds1 weapons it's mostly a composite airframe, not much metal. It has advanced navigation, advanced terrain-following capabilities, good manoeuvrability, it has highly effective precision-targeting. These are not simple, cheap or low-grade weapons. They are very capable and some effort was taken into reducing their weight and some basic reduction of RCS as well. The tactics and result were good enough for the attackers to sustain at least a 20 minute attack on two sites.

https://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive ... he-quds-1/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Absk3U3jaA

This was a blatant case of Iran's military attacking Saudi Arabia. They use their own military Quds force and the Quds1 weapon with true 'false-flag' methods, from locations of proxie forces to attempt to blame-shift it to the Houthie. Who then turned around and said, no, Iran did this actually.

It absolutely matters where the attack came from, and who did it.

Even the Houthies think it matters very much.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/g ... port-.html

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/khamenei-s- ... 77955.html
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 05:40

southerncross wrote: ... Yes, it was supposed that Russia was feeding targets to the Syrian AD before but then it was proven not to be the case. S-300 was supposed to deter IL but then it has not been used and is still under uncertain operational conditions. ... Syrian AD is terribly weak.


This also is ridiculous, when the S300 for Syria was announced there were endless claims of how this would prevent all future IAF operations over Syrian airspace.

Syria is effectively in a low level air-war, it's airforce is useless against Israel so they don't even try to defend the airspace any longer. But they have the amazing S300 that can clear Syria of IAF attacks, yet they don't engage? Why?

What other country would do that?

It's been just over a year since the Russian IL20 was shot down, and just three weeks later on third of Oct 2018 the Russians claimed to have completed delivery of the S300s to Syria.

Russia completed S-300 delivery to Syria: defence minister

AFP • October 3, 2018

Moscow (AFP) - Russia has sent S-300 air defence systems to the Syrian military, its defence minister said Tuesday, in line with new security measures after a Russian military plane was mistakenly shot down by Syria's Soviet-era missile. Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting of the Russian security council that the military on Monday "finished the deliveries of S-300 systems" including a total of four launch platforms. Russia announced last week that it would boost security measures in Syria following the downing of a Russian military plane by an S-200 missile by mistake, which Moscow blamed on nearby Israeli planes. Shoigu said it will take three months to train the Syrian military to operate the new air defence systems.


Which brings us to the 1st week of Jan this year.


Russia says Syrian S-300 weapons system operational by next month: report

i24NEWS

February 07, 2019, 03:13 AM - latest revision February 07, 2019, 03:14 AM

The advanced S-300 system was delivered by Russia to Syria in October

A day after Israeli firm ImageSat International (ISI) revealed that Syria’s S-300 air missile defense system may be operational imminently, Russia informed Israel and other relevant parties that it intends to get it ready for use by next month, the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar reported Wednesday.


This "next month" takes us up to some time during March 2019, becoming operational. So we can say that the Syrian S300 has been operational from at least April 1st, 2019. That's ~7 months of Syrian S300 operational capability.

Meanwhile, the IAF have stepped up its attacks over Syria during this entire operational service time, and not one S300 engagement so far? (no wonder Putin gifted these to Assad)

Should Trump offer to sell some Patriots to Assad? ... or would that be considered trolling?
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 12:25

Ok lets do a quick F-22/F-35/Patriot report card. How much money has the west sunk into these programs? Unit cost, R&D,training, interest on money borrowed, infrastructure and all the other bits I have missed. It does not really matter what year dollars we use because the total is fricking huge.

Now what has it accomplished? Assad is still in power in Syria, Maduro is still in power in Venezuela, Crimea is still part of Russia and the Saudis are still trying to fix their broken oil infrastructure.

Much like it is more the skill of the pilot than the type of aircraft used it seems it is which world leader is playing chess while the west plays checkers...
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 13:33

element1loop wrote:
southerncross wrote: ... Yes, it was supposed that Russia was feeding targets to the Syrian AD before but then it was proven not to be the case. S-300 was supposed to deter IL but then it has not been used and is still under uncertain operational conditions. ... Syrian AD is terribly weak.


This also is ridiculous, when the S300 for Syria was announced there were endless claims of how this would prevent all future IAF operations over Syrian airspace.

Syria is effectively in a low level air-war, it's airforce is useless against Israel so they don't even try to defend the airspace any longer. But they have the amazing S300 that can clear Syria of IAF attacks, yet they don't engage? Why?

What other country would do that?

It's been just over a year since the Russian IL20 was shot down, and just three weeks later on third of Oct 2018 the Russians claimed to have completed delivery of the S300s to Syria.

Russia completed S-300 delivery to Syria: defence minister

AFP • October 3, 2018

Moscow (AFP) - Russia has sent S-300 air defence systems to the Syrian military, its defence minister said Tuesday, in line with new security measures after a Russian military plane was mistakenly shot down by Syria's Soviet-era missile. Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting of the Russian security council that the military on Monday "finished the deliveries of S-300 systems" including a total of four launch platforms. Russia announced last week that it would boost security measures in Syria following the downing of a Russian military plane by an S-200 missile by mistake, which Moscow blamed on nearby Israeli planes. Shoigu said it will take three months to train the Syrian military to operate the new air defence systems.


Which brings us to the 1st week of Jan this year.


Russia says Syrian S-300 weapons system operational by next month: report

i24NEWS

February 07, 2019, 03:13 AM - latest revision February 07, 2019, 03:14 AM

The advanced S-300 system was delivered by Russia to Syria in October

A day after Israeli firm ImageSat International (ISI) revealed that Syria’s S-300 air missile defense system may be operational imminently, Russia informed Israel and other relevant parties that it intends to get it ready for use by next month, the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar reported Wednesday.


This "next month" takes us up to some time during March 2019, becoming operational. So we can say that the Syrian S300 has been operational from at least April 1st, 2019. That's ~7 months of Syrian S300 operational capability.

Meanwhile, the IAF have stepped up its attacks over Syria during this entire operational service time, and not one S300 engagement so far? (no wonder Putin gifted these to Assad)

Should Trump offer to sell some Patriots to Assad? ... or would that be considered trolling?


And let's not forget the S-400s Russia delivered with great fanfare.
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Unread post24 Sep 2019, 14:09

LOL, the fanfare was probably the only thing that could "blow" them out of the sky. :P
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Unread post25 Sep 2019, 07:09

F78F9338-5BE8-404C-A801-EBECBC678164.jpeg

I was able to obtain this new intel on why the missile defenses did not work. The operator was distracted.

But seriously, was their any sort of Air Defense near?
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