Russian Air Defense Systems unable to detect F-35!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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garrya

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Unread post20 Sep 2019, 23:29

southerncross wrote:Second, Israeli planes are known to have used Jordanian and East Syrian airspace under US control to perform opportunity strikes on scarcely populated areas of Syria. It does not imply in any way to cross over Hmeimim or to operate within the detection range of the Russian radar systems.

AFAIK, they had found fragments of SDB in Israel strike in Aleppo, that put F-35 inside kinematic envelope of s-200, S-300 and S-400. SDB has no range when released from low altitude either.
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southerncross wrote:Even if detected, Russia has spent literally years closing their eyes to these strikes, even when performed with conventional aircraft. I mean, a strike in East Syria just right next to US airspace proves essentially nothing. Maybe the F-35 can fly circles around the S-400, who knows, but this is not a proof of it.

Last time when Syria was striked by F-16 their excuse was that Israel flying at low altitude and launch cruise misile, hence S-400 can't detect them due to the earth curvature.
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garrya

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Unread post20 Sep 2019, 23:37

southerncross wrote:I will not comment on the openly propagandistic video by that "very neutral" Swede :lol:

What make it an openly propagandistic video?. IMHO, you can be correct but that video is just as openly propagandistic as any Russian MoD videos
marsavian wrote:Syria's S-300 is not turning a 'blind eye' to any Israeli aircraft on its territory so it is proving impotent against Israeli aircraft invading its airspace. Since the introduction of the S-300 there has been a conscious decision on Israel to use the F-35 Adir for deep strikes into Syria and so far it is X for 0 against Syria's IADs.

It is important to note that Syria's and Russian's IADS are linked, the information are shared so Syrian will detect anything that their Russian ally can detect.
Russia says it has formally linked its air defenses in Syria together with those of the regime of Bashar Al Assad. This could potentially limit the U.S. military’s ability to support its local partners fighting ISIS, increases the risk of a dangerous confrontation, and just add yet another layer to an ever more complicated situation on the ground.

Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander of the Russian Aerospace Forces Major-General Sergey Meshcheryakov made the announcement during a press roundtable at the Army-2017 International-Military Technical Forum on Aug. 25, 2017, according to state-run media outlet TASS. The event at the Patriot Expocentre in the Moscow Region is an annual military trade show and this year also includes a pavilion dedicated to the Kremlin’s intervention in Syria." Today, a unified integrated air defense system has been set up in Syria,” Meshcheryakov said. “We have ensured the information and technical interlinkage of the Russian and Syrian air reconnaissance systems. All information on the situation in the air comes from Syrian radar stations to the control points of the Russian force grouping.”

Russia’s air defense assets in Syria include S-300 and S-400 long-range surface-to-air missiles, as well as Pantsir-S1 short-to-medium range air defense systems. The bulk of these weapons are situated at Hmeimim Air Base south of Latakia, which also hosts Moscow’s air contingent, including advanced Su-27SM3 Flanker and Su-35S Super Flanker fighter jets and Su-34 Fullback multi-role combat aircraft.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... e-networks
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optimist

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Unread post21 Sep 2019, 01:57

It's almost time for a Russia Stronk meme :mrgreen:
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southerncross

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Unread post21 Sep 2019, 13:45

garrya wrote:AFAIK, they had found fragments of SDB in Israel strike in Aleppo, that put F-35 inside kinematic envelope of s-200, S-300 and S-400. SDB has no range when released from low altitude either.

Well, I have actually many comments here. In essence, it is a very complex scenario and I dispute that these events are a proof in the sense intended by the media.

- What does such convoluted flight path and weapons use tells about the mission planing? It was an isolated attack, designed for maximum risk avoidance, only entering the Syrian airspace briefly and from a completely unexpected sector, avoiding approaching Tartous or Hmeimim, with claims being made that the planes used US reserved codes (cannot comment on that, but that part of the air space is in fact reserved to coalition airforces) and use of stand-off weapons at max ranges, as usually. In essence, it was a one-off action with no distinctive features characteristics of the use of stealth planes IMHO. The use of F-35 was a claim for which I have not seen any proof in fact.

- We all know that you cannot completely stop arbitrarily planed attacks against a territory with a couple of modern systems which are in fact not covering the whole country but just the North-Western part of it and besides with no responsibility to protect Syria from attacks from a third party. KSA is protected by how many Patriot systems and still they get hit day in and day out by low-tech missiles and UAVs from Yemen, how come a handful of Pantsirs, a S-300 under Russia's control and a few prehistoric S-125 and similar missiles can cover all possible targets and approaches by a top of the line air force like the Israeli one? Syria would need early warning, ten times the number of AD units equipped with modern systems in all range classes, much better training and an air force worthy of that name, to avoid Israel's fighters from hitting them with impunity. Nothing of the like is available so expectations of 100% effectiveness to the AD are simply preposterous and need to be deemed as outright sensationalism. OTOH, even those scarce means are regularly shooting down a good proportion of incoming missiles in areas minimally defended around Damascus and Russian ADs in Hmeimim are simply sealing the airbase to all kinds of attacks with very low RCS weapons. This should be noticed as a relevant achievement in light of the recent events in KSA but instead the focus is conveniently placed somewhere else.

- The scenario in Syria is driven by politics and not by strictly military terms, i.e. the states are not at war and there is even a deconfliction mechanism in place that strongly restricts RoE. Besides Russia is walking a fine line in terms of legitimacy and until now very strictly avoiding to use force against third countries, not having reacted to frequent Israeli attacks against Syria at all until the Il-20 incident. They have only two systems in Tartus and Hmeimim for self defence, they have threatened to share data with the Syrians / use EW only after the loss of Russian servicemen, then they sent a token quantity of S-300 (in uncertain conditions as to who is actually controlling them and besides close to the Russian assets themselves) for deterrence purposes and then there have been comments as of late of them actually having started to actively stop Israeli attacks and having authorized Syrians to use the S-300. I don't know if these later claims hold any truth, but what is certain is that Russia has no obligation to shoot down Israeli planes attacking Syria. In fact, it could be claimed too that conventional aircraft used previously by Israel with the appropriate tactics (terrain masking, stand-off weapons etc.) are also beyond the capacities of the Russian systems, if the lack of a response is going to be a proof.

- Besides Syria has much more important goals (getting rid of Takfiri terrorism and reconstructing the country) than being dragged into a different type of conflict vs. state actors by Israeli provocations. These opportunity attacks are more of a humiliation used for political gain of Israel than a real threat to Syrian military capabilities, so the responses are kept at a minimum, and wisely so, I would say. Even in that case, the tactics used by IAF (avoidance of Syrian airspace, terrain masking, isolated attacks, stand-off weapons) and their meager effects on the Syrian military and infrastructure already show that a reasonable level of deterrence has been achieved. Syria is a destroyed country after all and cannot have the highest aspirations but rather focus on what is essential.
Last time when Syria was striked by F-16 their excuse was that Israel flying at low altitude and launch cruise misile, hence S-400 can't detect them due to the earth curvature.

Of course there are limits to what a single radar station can see and Israelis know that well. But even then, a S-400 missile shot at a fighter at say 300 km would be of little effect and politically out of place as explained above. To think the Syrian crumbling AD is a proof of the ultimate capabilities of a full blown Russian IADS as implied in some news is simply out of this world :roll:
What make it an openly propagandistic video?. IMHO, you can be correct but that video is just as openly propagandistic as any Russian MoD videos

Actually many, many things garrya, but only for an observer outside the Western informative bubble.
In geopolitics all sides say what is most convenient for them of course.
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charlielima223

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Unread post21 Sep 2019, 16:51

charlielima223 wrote:The response from the Russiapower fanclub will be the usual...
those weren't Russian users and there for they are poorly trained and qualified

Gee... I wonder who trains them?
Those are export models. They dont have all the capabilities and features of real Russian systems and platforms

So Russia is a crooked salesman then?

We'll probably hear or read this as a cover...
They weren't operating at their full capacity because they don't want to show what they can really do. Also they were in passive mode collecting all that data about the F-35


Case and point to the comment just above...
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botsing

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Unread post21 Sep 2019, 20:29

charlielima223 wrote:Case and point to the comment just above...

:mrgreen:

Always fun when the propaganda puppets call information they do not like propaganda.
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element1loop

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 11:17

But what if you strap 40N6E to MiG31, put the radars on the back of an Il-76 and call it the S-900 system-of-systems, then take over the world?
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southerncross

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 11:55

botsing wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:Case and point to the comment just above...

Always fun when the propaganda puppets call information they do not like propaganda.

We may agree more than you think on that botsing... and BTW this is not the first time you are offensive to me and act as if you were beyond the rules of the forum. If you don't have any rational argument to oppose it is better not so say anything that trampling on the forum's guidelines and ruining the discussion.
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botsing

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 16:35

southerncross wrote:
botsing wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:Case and point to the comment just above...

Always fun when the propaganda puppets call information they do not like propaganda.

We may agree more than you think on that botsing... and BTW this is not the first time you are offensive to me and act as if you were beyond the rules of the forum. If you don't have any rational argument to oppose it is better not so say anything that trampling on the forum's guidelines and ruining the discussion.

"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands"

Try being less obvious.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 16:35

charlielima223 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:The response from the Russiapower fanclub will be the usual...
those weren't Russian users and there for they are poorly trained and qualified

Gee... I wonder who trains them?
Those are export models. They dont have all the capabilities and features of real Russian systems and platforms

So Russia is a crooked salesman then?

We'll probably hear or read this as a cover...
They weren't operating at their full capacity because they don't want to show what they can really do. Also they were in passive mode collecting all that data about the F-35


Case and point to the comment just above...


If they got a dollar everytime someone used one of these excuses USSR would have never collapsed
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n3sk

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 16:54

https://youtu.be/NI0REqlYhmc Not S-3/400 bit a panstir being destroyed. You can see it attempting to launch missiles to defend its self

https://youtu.be/xeBDUiqKTA0 this one was a sleep and I detect a hint of sarcasm in the robot voice.
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geforcerfx

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 20:19

element1loop wrote:But what if you strap 40N6E to MiG31, put the radars on the back of an Il-76 and call it the S-900 system-of-systems, then take over the world?

ditch the mig-31 and just put the missile onto the Il-76 with the radar. While not conventional this is still something I would like to see the USA develop. It solves a lot of problems in the pacific theater for us, range would be huge (5,000nmi+) payload could be massive(12-18 large long range A2A missiles) and the amount of power and space you have means large sensors, lots of different types of sensors and all sorts of room for electronic warfare and countermeasure equipment. Not a one swap all solution but I think 50 of these able to operate from 2nd and 3rd island chains would be a considerable threat to air power in the South China Sea. Relys on a lot of tech that in development at the moment Laser, defense missiles, long range a2a missiles, more advanced EW and Aesa radars but I think with all that in there you have a pretty potent system that could help your fighters in the region a lot.
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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 21:14

So the Russians are unable or unwilling to strike Israeli F35s with their S-400 systems. How do you explain the US/Saudi failure to stop Iranian drones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSwzwMAVc14
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botsing

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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 21:39

awsome wrote:So the Russians are unable to strike Israeli F35s with their S-400 systems.

FTFY

Also the failure of one system to perform a specific mission does not make the failure of another system to perform its main mission less significant.
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Unread post22 Sep 2019, 21:50

botsing wrote:
awsome wrote:So the Russians are unable to strike Israeli F35s with their S-400 systems.

FTFY

Also the failure of one system to perform a specific mission does not make the failure of another system to perform its main mission less significant.


You are missing the point.The Russians are not pro Iran or Syria and they are not anti Israeli. The Russians are pro Russian and they have more to gain by promoting the status quo than they do trying to prove a point. I have long suspected they do not mind the Israelis keeping Iran's influence in Syria in check. The Russians also have more to gain by passively monitoring Israeli F-35 over flights.

On the American side you no longer have a socialist President bringing hope and change to the world at the end of a JDAM. The Americans have decided to allow Iranian strikes to succeed for their own reasons. Maybe they want a pretext for war with Iran... or maybe now as a net exporter of oil they are willing to remember who facilitated the 9/11 terror attacks.
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